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Bill Bauer

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Creditwrench

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Discover Card lawsuit
Questioner: Paula

Category: Collections Law

Private: Yes



Subject: discover card

Question: My husband and I began working with a debt consolidation company (Clear Debt Solution) almost a year ago to negotiate settlements on our unsecured credit cards and get us out of debt.



Discover sent us a notice of summons that we responded to explaining our situation (illness, med bills, and reduction of income that resultd), that we were working diligently with Clear Debt to repay what we owed. They have moved forward now with a summons judgment asking the judge to forego a hearing and grant judgment. They are threatening to freeze our bank accounts until they have the money we owe them. They have also been unwilling to negotiate a settlement to date through clear debt solution.



My question is where do we go from here. My husband and I didn't file bankruptcy because we didn't want to go that route b/c we were responsible for some of the debt. I have researched Discover's business practices and found they typically do not negotiate and are very cut throat when going after their clients. We don't know what to do. Would we be better of to file bankruptcy at this point.



Answer: Do as you think best about BK but I almost always recommend against it. I must agree that Discover is very cut throat but when things get tough the tough must get even more cut throat or they end up in tough shape indeed. So how can the tough get tougher?



By learning court procedure, rules and how to become downright vicious. You can't go after original creditors under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act but you can go after their lawyers in federal court. You have to learn about such things as in personam and subject matter jurisdiction as well.



Did the lawyer establish all the jurisdictional requirements of the court to give him standing to sue you? More than likely he did not because lower courts usually won't force them to comply with all the rules. They are usually very friendly towards the plaintiff and very unfriendly to the poor defendant.



You also have to learn about motions and how to prepare and file them. Of course this all sounds like an impossible task but it really isn't. You just need someone who knows about these things and can teach them to you in a very short period of time. I'm working on a fairly new concept in teaching at this time. It is an old idea that has been around for a long time but is getting a new face, becoming much easier to use and work with. Online collaboration is now possible.



It is much less dangerous than the old method whereby you could allow someone to take total control of your computer and had to hope that they knew enough to keep from messing it up. With the newer method of online collaboration that isn't possible so it is a much safer atmosphere.



With the new programs I can teach a student how to put a document together properly. I can use either web cam and mike, phone or even private chat room to get the points across or all 3 at the same time. I can type something in the chat room, the student can copy and paste it right into the document he is preparing and save it for printing. To make matters even better, the online collaboration is free to use. The program I'm using to teach is called Adobe Brio but there are a couple more out there I'm also looking into.



There will be more of that kind of programs coming on line in the near future. Microsoft has announced they are coming up with one in the near future which they may integrate into the newer versions of Microsoft office instead of just having it compatible with it's office suite of products. These online collaboration programs have just been released to the public this week so they will get much better as time goes on.



Of course, another lesson you probably learned the hard way is not to mess around with debt consolidation companies. All they did was soak up money you could have used to keep yourself out of trouble. Now it is time to start learning how to fix the problem the two of you created. Its either that or figure out how you are going to survive with 25% less money after they get a judgment.



So what will you do, learn how to fight or live with 25% less money while paying off Discover via garnishment? That will take money you need to keep the others at bay so they will be coming after you sooner or later as well.



Of course, there is always bankruptcy, isn't there? That will only cost you a couple of thousand or so but will also ruin your credit for quite a while whereas if you learn how to fight back you will probably be able to avoid all that cost and loss of credit standing. So which way will you go?
Thu, December 13, 2007 - 1:56 AM permalink
Iran refuses to take dollars for oil
Iran has announced that they will no longer accept American Dollars for their oil but will only accept Euros for their oil. That means that if we must buy Iranian oil we must first purchase Euros with which to buy the oil. Since the exchange rate is now highly in favor of the Euro over the Dollar we will have to pay a much higher price for oil than we would if they accepted American Dollars and this will translate into much higher prices at the pumps. If other major oil producing countries decide to follow suit we will be in real trouble. Presidenial Candidate Ron Paul explains in this video:

Play this video

Wed, December 12, 2007 - 1:07 PM permalink
Jurisdictionary tip of the week

Lawsuit Self-Help ... Step-by-StepTips & Tactics

Getting at the Truth ...Hard-Working Lawyer

There are two kinds of lawyers: (1) those who use the tools and rules Jurisdictionary makes easy for you to understand so you can find the truth and put it in the court record and (2) those who will play every dirty trick they can to hide the truth from you and the rest of the world.

There are two kinds of truth in lawsuits: law and facts. As a party in a lawsuit you must get at both kinds of truth, and you must get them into the court's record. The law and the facts.

If you're up against the typical lawyer, you must anticipate that lawyer will play every dirty trick he can to hide the truth so it doesn't get into the court's record.

So, what do you do?

Remember: There are two kinds of truth in lawsuits. Law and facts.

Both must get into the court's record ... or you lose!

You get law into the record by citing authorities.

There are only four kinds of authorities.

  1. Constitutions - both state and federal
  2. Statutes - legislative enactments in all their many forms
  3. Rules - rules of procedure and rules of evidence
  4. Case Law - written opinions of appellate courts

My opinion, your opinion, or the opinion of your next door neighbor or email pen-pal doesn't count. Trust me on this.

Whether we like it or not, constitutions, statutes, and rules mean only what written opinions of our appellate courts say they mean. So, before you go into court armed with a statute or rule or constitutional provision in support of your case, do the research! Find out and be prepared to cite what the appellate courts have to say about it.

As for the facts, there are two kinds of facts. Facts that fall into the special category known as "admissible evidence" and everything else. And believe me, friends, if your facts aren't admissible they are of no value whatever in court.

You get admissible facts into the court's record using what we call discovery tools. There are five of these

  1. Requests for Admissions - just what they sound like
  2. Requests for Production - getting papers and things from the other side
  3. Interrogatories - written questions that must be answered under oath
  4. Depositions - spoken questions that must be answered under oath
  5. Subpoenas and other court orders - that command others to respond

Jurisdictionary explains all this in a way that's easy enough for an 8th grader to understand and use ... tools and rules you can use to get the facts and law on the record in your case ... in spite of the other side's dirty tricks to stop you!

Only the truth is true. Nothing else is.

The tools and rules of America's Justice System give you power to get at the truth (both law and facts) and put that truth into the court's official record so you can win your lawsuit. It's easy if you use the tools and rules the way Jurisdictionary teaches in our step-by-step lawsuit self-help course.

===========================

Learn how easy it is to win YOUR lawsuit!

Ask anyone who has our course. "Jurisdictionary Works!"

Our 2-day lawsuit self-help course explains lawsuit tools and rules step-by-step so you can win ... without a lawyer!

It's not hard to win when you know what we teach.

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Once you master the simple concepts we teach, you will be more powerful than most lawyers I met in more than 20 years practicing in state and federal courts as a licensed bar attorney!

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Our complete 2-day course comes on 4 CDs:

  • 5-hour video seminar CD simplifying the process of litigation
  • 2 audio CDs that cover practical tactics and procedures
  • 14 lawsuit-simplifying multimedia tutorials on a 4th CD.

Save legal fees! Control judges! Defeat crooked lawyers!

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========================

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Mon, December 10, 2007 - 4:30 AM permalink
Never pay a debt collector!
Category: Collections Law

Private: No



Subject: Will paying a collections account off hurt my credit?



Question: I have a cell phone bill from 2001 that went to collections. I would like to know if it would be better to pay this debt off now or if I should wait a few months since it will then be 7 years. I do want to pay it off but I also want to help my credit. I read that if I make payment, then the account will stay on my credit report for 7 more years. I live in Washington.





Answer: Paying your account off will not (or should not)cause the account to stay on your credit for 7 more years regardless of what state you live in. If that were to happen it would be a violation of FCRA known as re-aging the debt.



Paying the debt may cause your score to drop and how much it will drop depends on several factors. The first factor is how large the debt is. If the debt is very large paying it off would have a slightly positive impact because you would improve your debt to available credit ratio. It would also have a much more negative effect because it would report as recent collection activity.



Many people mistakenly think that paying it off will take it off their reports and help their score and many more erroneously think that future creditors will look at it in a positive light because they paid it but the real truth is that most potential creditors will view it negatively because the listing shows that they had to be forced to pay it by a collection agency. Paying a debt collector will always hurt far more than it helps.



The only way that paying a debt collector will help you is in the event you are trying to buy a home or make other large purchase and the lender insists that you pay it off in order to qualify for the loan. If that is the case then people should use the method I teach called The Westcap Method which results in the parties entering into a legally binding contract if the bank certified cashier's check is cashed. Please understand that this is not an Accord & Satisfaction (A&S) gimmick. Both parties must fully understand the agreement and that they are voluntarily entering into a contractual agreement. If the debt collector does not comply with the terms and conditions of the agreement they can be sued. People who use it should also understand that entering into such an agreement with the 3rd party debt collector will not affect how the original creditor reports or it's ability to do so.



Paying a debt collector also has another even worse effect because it rewards the debt collector, keeps him in business and believing that his abusive collection practices are the right way to do business because it pays him to treat people that way even if it is wrong. The best advice is never pay a debt collector a crying dime because it will hurt you every time.



People often want to pay debt collectors for moral reasons but morality should never be a factor in making a business decision. Debt collectors love to prey on people using morality as the reason they should be paid. That is a shabby trick to play on people. Any time money is involved it is strictly a business decision and should never be allowed to become a moral issue. If a debt collector attempts to use morality to shame you into paying you should ask him if he ever heard the saying that one should do unto others as he would have done unto him.



Learn how to deal with abusive phone calls

Get even more help dealing with abusive debt collectors

You can also get more help by calling 405-616-7901
Sun, December 9, 2007 - 6:19 AM permalink
Credit card debt and how to deal with it
Question

Due to a previous hardship I have accumulated roughly $200,000 on 15 accounts, in unsecured credit card debt over the past 4 yrs. With my current income I am unable to continue my payments on these debts. Bankruptcy has been on my mind but is something that I will not do until it is proven there is no other way out.



I have hired an attorney based debt settlement agency to negotiate the accounts so that I am able to pay back some of what owe I to avoid filing. They will be keeping constant contact with each creditor I owe to complete each settlement successfully. However I am aware it is advisable that I complete a payback to each creditor as soon as possible. It was suggested I keep the timeframe under 36 months.



Even with a plan to pay back a gross $101,193 including program fees, I am unnable to afford the 3 year time frame. The company I am working with has agreed to extend my settlement program to 48 months, while still upholding a 55% settlement guarantee. However I am afraid if one of my creditors take me to court on a debt that I will be unable to complete the settlement program. What are the chances of this taking place?



Also if that does occur, what are my chances of fighting the judgment in court? Due to my budget, is there a chance the judge will allow me to continue to settle as long as there is proof of my intention to pay off the debt? I do need help and I will not file bankruptcy until I find it impossible to avoid. I appreciate any assistance.



Answer

First of all, you need to get away from that debt settlement company because regardless of the guarantee the creditors are not bound by any agreement between you and the debt settlement company. Any statement to the contrary by any debt settlement company is nothing more than horse feathers.



If a creditor gets tired of waiting for their money they can sue you at any time and don't have to tell your so called debt settlement company anything. What are the chances of their filing a lawsuit against you? I'd be willing to bet they are greater than 60-40 that you will be sued by one or more of your creditors or a debt collector.



What are your chances of fighting the judgment in court? That depends on how you go about defending the case. Tell the judge you have this great attorney based debt collection company who guaranteed you this would not happen and he will probably laugh you out of court. All the money you paid that great debt settlement company will have gone down the drain.



Yes, the judge will allow you to continue to settle via a garnishment of your wages. No problem. He will offer you other options as well. He will offer to let you give up any and all money you have in any bank accounts through garnishment and he may even let you pay off by selling of any excess property you might own such as guns, boats, coin or other valuable collections, maybe even furniture taken out of your home by the sheriff.



Of course, he will not want to actually tell you that because if he did you might decide to hide all such assets from your creditors and he wouldn't want you to get into trouble for hiding assets so he will just shut up and quietly issue orders allowing them to show up at your doorstep one fine day with a truck to haul it all away and sell it for whatever they can get out of it at auction.



And of course they will even be nice enough to force you to pay the costs of the auction too plus their time and trouble and expense to come and take it away from you. And will bankruptcy help you? Yes, I'm sure it will. If you can qualify that is. Whether or not you can qualify depends on many factors and the bankruptcy court will be nice enough to let you pay your attorney about $1200 plus the filing fees and maybe other expenses to find out. And all your creditors will find out that you are trying to qualify for bankruptcy instead of paying them and that will tick them off even more. If you don't qualify they will probably come after you like a swarm of hornets. So, if you fail and get a garnishment they can't get more than 25% of your wages and only one creditor can garnish at a time. So the other 14 will have to stand in line.



So lets forget about all the court costs, attorney fees and maybe about 29$ interest just for ease of figuring and say you are making #100,000 a year it will only take about 8 years to pay it all off. Add in the interest and you might very well be eating little more than Ramen Noodles for the rest of your working life if you can't qualify for bankruptcy for some reason. If you can qualify for bankruptcy you may very well have to pay them all off instead of getting the debts completely discharged.



You need to remember that the new bankruptcy law was written by MBNA Bank so that should tell you how much relief you are likely to get out of bankruptcy. My best advice to you is to start learning how to fight back against the almost inevitable motions for summary judgment before they start happening. The best way to do that is to visit http://www.creditwrench.com or http://consumers.creditwrench.com or call me at 405-616-7901
Thu, December 6, 2007 - 5:31 AM permalink
Discovery tools in court
Lawsuit Self-Help ... Step-by-Step

Tips & Tactics

Getting Evidence In ...Win with Jurisdictionary's Step-by-Step Course!

In every lawsuit I handled in more than 21 years as a career lawyer, the other side played every dirty trick possible to hide the evidence. I had to learn how to stop their hide-and-seek games and get evidence into the court's record!

If you want to win your lawsuit, you have to learn how, too!

Fortunately, the process is simple!

Learning how begins with knowing six (6) things:

  1. Before the lawsuit begins, you have no power to get evidence.
  2. Once the lawsuit begins, you have five powerful (5) discovery tools.
  3. The other side will object to and resist your discovery efforts.
  4. You must move the court to order them to respond to discovery.
  5. Once they've been ordered to respond, you must move the court for an Order to Show Cause if they continue to refuse to respond.
  6. If they don't respond after the Order to Show Cause, you must move the court for an Order of Contempt that puts them in jail for failure to respond to the court's second order.

This will always get the job done ... if you follow this process.

Many people think they have a right to demand others respond to their questions and requests for documents before a lawsuit is filed. This is just foolish. Even the Freedom of Information Act will not get all the evidence you need to win a lawsuit. Filing FOIA requests usually gets you only what "they" want you to have, and responses to FOIA requests can take f_o_r_e_v_e_r.

Once a lawsuit is filed, however, you use your 5 discovery tools to force the other side to provide the evidence you need to win..

  • Requests for Admissions
  • Requests for Production
  • Interrogatories
  • Depositions
  • Subpoenas and other Court Orders

BUT! If you aren't prepared to move the court to compel responses and then follow up with a motion for an order to show cause, you're probably wasting your time to even try to win, because the other side will try to hide the evidence. Expect it every time!

When you follow up with your motion for an order compelling them to respond and then with a motion to show cause and finally, if necessary, with a motion for contempt ... and "you" set all these motions for hearing and attend the hearings prepared to argue forceably for your right to get the evidence in ... you WILL get the evidence in!

There's just this thing about being locked in a jail cell that tends to make people do what the court orders them to do! Once you get the court to order responses to your discovery, you have the right to have them jailed if they don't respond. That's part of everyone's rights as American citizens! Use your power to win!

We make it easy and affordable for you to know what it takes to win your lawsuit. Our course lays it all out for you step-by-step.

Complete our step-by-step course in a single weekend!

Visit www.Jurisdictionary.com to learn more!

Click HERE to tell your friends about Jurisdictionary!

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Our affordable 4-CD step-by-step self-help course includes:

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  • Laminated EasyGuide to the Rules of Court
  • Postage and Handling included in one affordable price: $219

Ask anyone who has our course. Jurisdictionary Works!

Save legal fees! Control judges! Defeat crooked lawyers!

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Mon, December 3, 2007 - 10:49 AM permalink
Creditwrench Pro Se litigant's course




Mobile post sent by creditwrench using Utterz.  Replies.  mp3

Download (0.9MB audio)

Thu, November 29, 2007 - 4:55 PM permalink
MAXXED OUT -pay up or fight?
Your Answer: The lawyer will try to convince you that he can help you by getting you a lower amount in a settlement agreement. So he can get them to settle for maybe 80% of what they want now. So he can get them to come down to $5000 maybe. Saves you $2,000. That's a big savings right? And how much will he want? Maybe %500 to $1,000 for getting you that great deal. Let's look at the alternative. Let's put the settlement shoe on the other foot.



Maybe you would rather be like the Porterfields who live here in Oklahoma. They owe #10,350 plus court costs according to a well known law firm. They got their summons 3 days ago. I see the lawyers learned the last lesson I taught them and put a full Miranda warning in the top of the complaint but I also see they have some illegal wording in it. They probably got their new copy of the Miranda warning off of some Internet message board for lawyers or debt collectors. So they have a new lesson to learn which is not to put wording in Miranda warnings which sounds good but is highly illegal.



Then the summons gave the Porterfields 35 days to answer the summons but according to the complaint they have 30 days to demand validation of the debt. Now that seems a bit confusing to have both in the same document. People will fear the court action and forget to exercise their right to demand validation. If the attorney had given only the normal 20 days to respond that really would have been overshadowing. So maybe we can get them on overshadowing and maybe not.



But they sent another letter which was received just Saturday demanding payment. It contained two more violations of FDCPA. Then in this case we also have solid evidence of illegal misrepresentation of the legal status of the debt. Both the complaint and this new letter violate another portion of FDCPA which is providing false and misleading information to the consumer. Two more violations. Now what's that worth? Hard to tell for sure but if we can get #1,000 per violation that would be maybe $5,000 to #6,000 in violations, then #2,000 to #3,000 in attorney fees, another #3 to $4 hundred in costs and maybe a few thousand more in damages plus an agreement to dump their lawsuit in local court and never sell, assign or otherwise dispose of the debt nor attempt to collect it ever again. Then we will want a clause in the settlement agreement that says they can't ever reveal the terms of the settlement agreement to any 3rd party. The question then becomes one of whether they want to settle or go explain to a federal judge and jury why they committed all those violations. What do you think they will do, settle quickly and pay or fight all the way to court and pay a lot more than that in attorney fees?

I've had 5 other students in the past here in Oklahoma who were being sued by this same law firm in mortgage foreclosure actions. This law firm capitulated in all 5 cases and those people are still in their homes. I've had far more than 5 cases of mortgage foreclosures where they didn't want to fight and of course I don't know where they are today but they sure aren't living in their homes anymore.



I see this law firm didn't even have an affidavit in their lawsuit. Maybe that's a good thing for somebody including them because Mrs. Greene, another student from Illinois called me yesterday talking about the affidavit that was in an old judgment against her husband. She figured out how badly the affiant had lied in the affidavit presented to the court. She called up OSI, a huge collection agency and asked to speak to the lady who had notarized the affidavit. The lady answered the phone and admitted knowing Ger Xong, a former employee at OSI and having notarized many such affidavits. Mrs. Greene was recording the conversation, of course, and called up the police department in Duluth, Georgia and gave them all the information she had. According to Mrs. Greene the Duluth, Georgia police department is willing to take a criminal complaint and prosecute Ger Xong for her false statements. That will also have other consequences which will soon be taken up in federal court.



Scott from Kentucky didn't come out quite as well. His wife owed $13,000 to a debt collector and took them to federal court. In the settlement agreement Scott agreed to pay the debt collector just over $1,000 instead of $13,000 but he felt he made a big win because his wife is so afraid of having to go to court.



Or how about Bobby S. here in Oklahoma. He was sued for almost $1700 by a debt collector over an apartment lease. He should have won easily but it ended up the court gave judgment to the plaintiff for $80 plus about $30 in court costs and he had to pay the attorney 10 percent of the judgment ($8.00) for his time and trouble of preparing the case and spending about 2 days in court arguing with Bobby. Bobby could have taken the case federal where he would have won big but he is about 70 years old and still working every day at an auto auction here in OKC and didn't want to mess with it any more. He is happy because I spoke to him the other day at a local restaurant and they have never bothered to come after their $100.



I can go on and on like this for a lot more than anybody would want to read about and I can provide audio recordings and videos of happy people who have won against debt collectors telling their stories.



James Scurlock of California made a movie called MAXXED OUT which you can rent from Blockbuster. He came to Oklahoma twice and filmed me and students but didn't put any of it in the movie. He used other Oklahomans who lost children through suicide and had other tales of woe to tell instead but if you look at the credit screens at the end of the movie and watch the left hand side of the screen you will see my name in the credits list. It is an interesting movie. You might want to watch it.



So now it is up to you. What do you want to do? Pay somewhere around $5,000 and maybe a lot more than that if you don't have cash to pay or would you rather fight? Its up to you.



If you would rather pay then fight then fine, but if you want to fight and fight hard call me at 405-616-7901.



If you would like to listen to some of my students telling their stories here is your chance to do so.

Download (22.6MB audio)

Tue, November 27, 2007 - 3:31 AM permalink
Legal Prejudice ... What is it?
Lawsuit Self-Help ... Step-by-Step

Tips & Tactics

Legal Prejudice ... What is it?creditwrench fighting prejudice

With prejudice? Without prejudice? What's the difference? What is legal prejudice anyway? How can it affect you and your lawsuit?

There are several aspects to this important word, but they all come down to pre-judging a thing. That's where the word comes from. To judge a matter without seeing all the evidence.

If a case is dismissed "with prejudice", the court is satisfied there's no need to see more evidence. The court has seen enough. The matter is judged. The issues are settled. And, if the plaintiff tries to bring his case again, the court will refuse to hear it.

If a case is dismissed "without prejudice", however, then the court is willing to see more evidence, to reconsider the issues, to give the matter another chance to be tried.

The concept of "prejudice" also applies to evidence rulings. Some facts do more to inflame than inform. For example, in an automobile negligence case, a bloody shirt or shocking photograph of a dead child's mangled body may cause a jury to rule emotionally, ignoring other facts that might show the defendant didn't cause the accident. The prejudicial value of the offered facts outweighs the probative value of those facts, i.e., the shock outweighs the proof. In such cases (if a timely objection is made) the court may exclude such prejudicial facts, thus forcing the jury to concentrate more heavily on liability, instead of jumping to conclusions based on the horror of the injuries. (If no timely objection is made, however, the court may allow the prejudicial facts, and an innocent defendant may be held liable for damages he or she did not cause!)

There's a lot to learn if you want to win your lawsuit, but we make it easy and affordable ... laying it out for you step-by-step.

Complete our step-by-step course in a single weekend!

Visit www.Jurisdictionary.com to learn more!

Next week's Tips & Tactics: "Legal Presumptions"

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Mon, December 10, 2007 - 4:20 AM permalink
Student Loans and FDCPA
Questioner: brittany

Category: Collections Law

Private: No



Subject: FDCPA

Question: I work for a student loan lender, the in-house collections department. our borrowers are required to list 2 "contact references" on their master promissory note. there is nothing in the entire MPN terms and conditions that explains why or gives any detail about why you are listing these "contact references". our internal policy is when borrower is past due we contact the references even if we are just trying to get a message to the borrower, not necessarily trying to get updated location information. we make calls to references every 30 days until we finally talk to the borrower.



I understand, per FDCPA guidelines, that a 3rd party can only be called to get location information and then only once (unless we believe the info they gave was erroneous). however, my higher-ups are telling me "references" are not considered "3rd party" because the borrower provided their names and phone numbers, therefore we can make continued calls to them. i don't feel 100% comfortable making these calls without being sure. i have done research but can't get a definite answer.



Answer: I see what you see in FDCPA and I see nothing in it that says anything about references given by the consumer being in such a special category or somehow being anything other than a 3rd party.



I don't happen to know of any court cases which deal with that but I'm sure there are some out there. So, not having any court cases at my fingertips to go by I can only use my own opinion. So let us use some logic to arrive at a probable answer. So long as nobody files a lawsuit against you everything would be fine until somebody gets upset with you.



Let us suppose however that you just happen to repeatedly call the parents of an educated consumer such as a Creditwrench student. The parents complain to their child about this debt collector that keeps on calling repeatedly. The child prepares a full cease & desist and has the parents sign it and send it to your company. Your employer ignores that because the parents were given as references so according to his logic he has the right to do so.



Then the parents record your calls in some manner, say a written record of your calls and the child helps them prepare and submit a federal lawsuit against you and later another against your company for the offenses. Your employer won't be all that worried about it even if he loses the case. His violations make him a lot of money because only a very small number of people will sue him for it but he gets lots of collections from people that way.



They can't hurt him much. He will simply offer them a small settlement and remove their name from the list of references and go on doing things the same way as always. Naturally, he isn't going to tell his employees he was sued and had to settle to keep from going to court.



But when you get your summons to go to court what are you going to do? Of course you are going to go to your employer, hand him the summons and ask him to help you. Will he do that or not? Will he be a nice guy and pay your attorney fees and your "fines" or will he tell you to go take a hike? Of course you won't know that until it happens to someone in your office and they may just suddenly "disappear" so they don't start crying about what happened around the office.



Do you think you can force the boss to pay your costs and "fines" and huge attorney fees? The answer to that may lie if we use a similar situation as an illustration. Suppose the boss handed you the keys to the company car and a company check and told you to go get a case of paper for the office fax machine and told you to hurry because he had important faxes coming in soon. So you head to Staples doing about 75 in a 25 mph school zone. You get caught and have to pay a big fine. Its also going to cost you a hefty hike in your car insurance premiums for the next 3 or 4 years. Is he likely to pay your traffic tickets?



I'd say he would be more likely to fire you than pay, wouldn't you? So what do you think? Of course, maybe you will just think that it is highly unlikely that anybody would think to sue you personally and would only sue your employer so why risk a run-in with the boss and lose your job that way. Probably won't ever happen to you anyway and so you will probably never have to worry about it.



But let me ask you a question. If there isn't anything to worry about because it probably won't happen anyway why is it that the Oklahoma State government passed a law saying that state employees can't be sued for mistakes they might make even in the course of their employment? Well, what they said publicly as their reason for passing such a law is that if state employees could be sued for actions their employment related mistakes and errors of judgment it wouldn't be long before the state would not be able to find anyone willing to risk going to work for the state. They wouldn't be able to hire new employees.



Other states have passed similar laws for exactly the same reason. Now then, I will just have to leave the answer to your question up to your own judgment about how much risk you are willing to take in the course of your employment. In order for it to happen to you there will have to be someone finding out that you can be sued personally and send your company a full cease & desist then sit back and wait for you to violate then file a federal lawsuit against you.



All I can tell you is that it isn't a matter of whether or not it will happen but only a question of when it will happen to you. Count on the fact that your employer won't tell you about the cease & desist letter he got from some fool on somebody's list of references. He will most likely just trash it.



Of course, another aspect of your question is the fact that your employer is doing work for the Department of Education so FDCPA don't apply to government agencies but does that immunity apply to private companies who are contractors of government agencies?



I think it does but don't let that calm your fears because the Dept. of Education has it's own version of FDCPA which their contractors must obey so instead of asking me whether repeatedly calling references is legal or not why not call the DOE or write them a letter asking them your question? They will give you an answer that you can rely on because I might be wrong on this one. If you worked for a private company not connected with DOE then your risk would be much greater.
Thu, November 22, 2007 - 6:19 AM permalink
Creditwrench has been contacted by the following person. If you can help him with information please do so and tell him where you saw his announcement.



Here is the message that has just been posted:

***************

I am a writer for Business Week magazine. I am doing research on credit card offers to consumers who have been through personal bankruptcy. What I am specifically looking for are examples of such consumers receiving offers for new cards in return for agreeing to put a past credit card debt that was discharged by the court onto the new card. I am interested in examples of Capital One doing this or other banks. Please contact me at robert_berner@businessweek.com or feel free to call at 312-233-7944. Thanks Robert
Wed, November 21, 2007 - 2:40 AM permalink
Interrogatories and how to use them
Lawsuit Self-Help ... Step-by-Step

Tips & Tactics

Win with Jurisdictionary!Using Interrogatories ...

The use of interrogatories can narrow issues of fact before taking depositions (and certainly before going to trial) giving you a decided advantage over those who take depositions before they know what to ask or those who foolishly go to trial without first discovering all the facts of the case.

Interrogatories are nothing more complex than carefully written questions that must be answered under oath in writing. When drafting interrogatories, be careful to ask your questions in such a way that only one answer (i.e., the answer you want) is possible.

The following is an example.

=============================

IN THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT

IN AND FOR SUNSHINE COUNTY, FLORIDA

Case No. 2007-123

Judge Benchpounder

PETER PLAINTIFF,

Plaintiff,

v.

DANNY DEFENDANT,

Defendant.

____________________/

PLAINTIFF'S FIRST SET OF INTERROGATORIES

PLAINTIFF Peter Plaintiff propounds the following interrogatories to defendant Danny Defendant.

  1. List all customers to whom you sold or delivered grapefruit from 17 May 2007 until the present, giving for each customer name, address, telephone number (if known), and gross revenues received from each such customer.
  2. List all vendors from whom you purchased or obtained grapefruit from 17 May 2007 until the present, giving for each vendor name, address, telephone number (if known), and gross revenues received from each such customer.
  3. List the names, addresses, and telephone number of all persons holding shares in Grapefruit Delivery Corporation at any time from 17 May 2007 to the present.

RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED this __ day of _________ 2007.

________________________________

Peter Plaintiff, Plaintiff

=====================

By asking questions like this you can easily force the other side to provide written answers under oath. With such sworn answers in the court's record you are better prepared to take depositions. In many cases, you may be able to win your lawsuit with nothing more!

Notice that each of the questions in this example is narrow, aimed at particular facts in a particular time period. Broad questions will not give you the results you need. Focus your questions.

Don't rely on "form books" or other people's cookbook methods to win your lawsuit. Every case is different. If you work with blank forms or legal cookbooks, you may miss a form's purpose! After all, filling in a form when you don't know what needs to go in the blanks isn't smart. Content is more important than form. It is content that gives a form its effectiveness.

The official Rules of Court handbook for your state (available from Thomson-West at 1-800-344-5009) will give you the official format for various forms but will not tell you the essential content that gives the forms' effectiveness. Our step-by-step lawsuit self-help course will do that for you!

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Tue, November 20, 2007 - 5:23 AM permalink
Iraq deployment and a debt collector
Questioner: Mike

Category: Collections Law

Private: No



Subject: debt collector

Question: QUESTION: I just returned from a deployment to Iraq (active duty airforce) my mother informed me that she got a phone call from a credit lawyer saying I owe money then I got a letter in the mail at her house (missouri) which she did not open she sent it back, I am worried that this letter might be a summons I don't know about, would they just send it in the mail or would it atleast be certified from the courts? I know who the collection agency is (AAC) and the debit is past the statute of limitations I did send them a SOL expiration letter but I sent this before my mother told me about the phone call and letter, but I am scared they summons me and there might be a judgement soon that I don't know about.



ANSWER: You need to go to the county courthouse and ask to see your public record. They will show it to you on a computer screen and you can check for any judgments that way. You should also ask if the public records for your county are available online and if so how do you access them. If there is a judgment against you then it should be voidable because you were serving overseas and they failed to inform the court of this fact.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------



QUESTION: I really appreciate your fast response; I have two last questions which county clerk, where I live(Georgia), where my mother lives (Missouri) (I was using her address when I was deployed, since I put everything in storage), my home of records (Florida), or where the collection agency is located on my old credit report (Delaware). My last question is since each of the State's SOL has expired and if they take me to court is the expired SOL a good defense? By the way I dispute these charges my ex-wife charged them up while we were separated and I did not know until a year later. The Last action on accnt was march '00 and the longest SOL is 6 years. Thanks again you are a big help.



Answer: If you can prove it then SOL is an absolute defense. When I was sued on a SOL debt more than 5 years ago I filed motion to dismiss and the lawyer dismissed his own case immediately. I wanted to do something to the lawyer at that time but was told by a highly regarded consumer activism lawyer named Libby Mercer who practices here in Oklahoma City that I could not sue the lawyer in Oklahoma. What she obviously didn't know was that I could have sued the lawyer and the collection agency for violation of FDCPA in federal court and would most likely have won the case. I didn't know it either at the time so just forgot about it and of course now I can't sue him because there is a one year statute for bringing suit under FDCPA.



Now I have another collection agency who started bugging me about the same debt early this month. I'm going to play with them for a while and let them rack up some violations and then try to goad them into filing a new lawsuit to collect the debt. That's when they will learn not to mess with this old geezer.



I haven't checked my credit reports to see if they have put it on there but they had better hope they never get that stupid because then I will also have cause of action under FCRA for illegal re-aging of the debt.



In the meantime I am having fun with them and their phone calls. On the last call I read them their Miranda rights by telling them that the call was being recorded and that they have the right to remain silent and anything they say might be used against them in a court of law. The lady was really surprised because she exclaimed "You are reading me my Miranda rights!" to which I replied "You got it lady!" and then the line suddenly went dead. (LOL). Of course, as anybody including her knows that those are the rights police read to you when you are arrested and have no legal place or valuer whatever in such a situation as a phone call from a debt collector but what the heck!!! It sure got rid of her in a hurry. (LOL) Didn't want to talk to her anyway.
Sun, November 18, 2007 - 7:12 AM permalink
Federal courts vs local courts
Questioner: Need Help

Category: Collections Law

Private: No



Subject: Debt Collection

Question: QUESTION: Hello,

I let my son use a credit card back in 2004, he ran it up and I told him it was his debt so he started making payments. He got late a few times and the bank called me. I told them what had happened and asked them to not call me, they seemed fine with that and was working out payments with my son. The he got in a wreck and was off work for 6 months, again him and the bank worked out a payment plan. Well I guess he didn't pay on time so they placed it as a charge off on my credit report. I disputed it and it has been removed, but now I am getting calls everyday from a debt collection company. They said if I don't settle this with them they will take my house, send me a 1099 tax form and take any tax refund. What should I do?

Thank you for your time.



ANSWER: Did they say any of that in writing or just in threatening phone calls? Most likely only in threatening phone calls. They can't take your house but they can put a lien on it so you can't borrow money against in very easily and they can keep you from selling the house unless they get paid in the process but they can't take it away from you and make you move out. And they really can't send you a 1099 tax form unless they know that the original creditor has not done so. There is quite a bit to know about 1099 and the IRS rulings and law dealing with that and I can't explain it all here but for the time being I wouldn't worry too much about that. However that gives them no right to attach your tax refund. Seems to me the first thing you need to do is get a good digital tape recorder with a USB port so you can download whatever you record and then visit http://www.creditwrench.com/18questions.html and you will learn how to deal with debt collectors and their phone calls. You need to record every time they call even if you have to write it down and keep a careful record of all their calls, date, time, phone number it came from and at least a synopsis of what was said on the call. You need to start learning about FDCPA and FDCPA violations and how to deal with them.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------



QUESTION: Thanks for your answer, and yes they did it all over the phone. I really don't know the laws. So this debt was on my credit report as a charge off. I disputed it and it was removed. So this third party collection company can now place a line on my house? This debt is up to $11,685.00

I don't know what to do. My son was dealing with the credit card company for the last 3 years not me.



Answer: If they sue you in local court they probably can get a lien on your house. In order to even have a crying chance to prevent that from happening you are going to have to start gathering evidence of wrong doing on their part which is never hard to do then sue them in federal court.



That won't stop their attempting to put a judgment on you because federal courts can't interfere with the functions or orders of local state courts in most situations. Stopping them has to be done through private but court ordered negotiation and the best way to get those negotiations going is to sue them in federal court and do your negotiating during the process of the rule 26(f) meetings.



The rule 26(f) meetings are designed as a method whereby the parties can attempt to work out their differences without actually having to take it to a full blown hearing. A settlement conference in other words.



If you have enough evidence of wrong doing against them they will be very interested in settling with you outside of court and that is the point where you can try to demand that they dismiss their local court suit against you and you stand a pretty good chance of getting it done that way.



The major difference is that the only real question before the local court is whether or not you owe the debt and if you do then they will get a judgment and can put a lien against your house among other things. In federal court the only issue before the court is whether they broke the law or not and the fact of your owing them money or even their having a judgment will not be an issue before the court. Therefore the tables are turned and you have an excellent chance of winning if you have the evidence of their wrong doing. If you have them caught red-handed there is little chance they will want to go to trial at any price. That's the way you have to make it work for you. It's about the only chance you have to keep them from getting a lien on your house.



The only real problem to the whole thing is that it is very easy to file motions, pleadings and briefs in local courts but they are considerably more difficult in federal court in many ways. You really have to pay strict attention to both the federal rules of procedure and evidence as well as the local federal rules of evidence and procedure.
Sat, November 17, 2007 - 8:34 AM permalink
Questioner: R.D.

Category: Collections Law

Private: No



Subject: citibank summons

Question: Last week I was served a civil summons from NCO Financial (a collection agency)'s attorneys stating they have a debt of $17,000 from a Citibank Mastercard I had some years ago. This came as quite a shock to me as this was the first I've heard about this debt since 2005. At that time I was contacted by NCO Financial about the debt, and I told them I had cancelled my card with Citibank the year prior because my card went missing and I suspected it had been run up with fraudulent charges. The card had a max of 10K and the civil papers listed the balance due at over 9,700.00 plus another 8K in penalties and interest. My point is this: I obtained a copy of my credit report just two months ago which listed this debt as being charged off by Citibank. I never filed a police report at the time but believe my card to have been stolen in 2004, which is when I called to cancel that card as I stated above. I am scared because they are giving me 30 days and then filing a judgement against me, I am a single mother with no assets other than my one car, and I cannot even afford to set up a payment plan at this time. In addition, many of the charges that made my balance so high on my card were not mine--any that occured after June 2004. What are my options?? Is NCO Financial really allowed to serve judgement against me even though Citibank charged this off more than 2 years ago? Please help, I'm distraught over how I'm going to care for my infant son if they take my wages, etc.



Answer: My friend and I were discussing this very thing at our monthly Oklahoma City Jurisdictionary meeting last Thursday night. Here is the video tape of that discussion which you can watch and learn about chargeoff.

Jim and Creditwrench CEO Bill Bauer discuss chargeoffs

Can they serve you with a judgment. Yes, they can and they probably will. And yes, they can take your wages. You need to learn how to fight judgments so that you have a crying chance of defeating their demand for judgment. If you would like to learn how to defeat their demand for judgment then you need to call me at 405-616-7901

Download (67.9MB video)

Mon, November 12, 2007 - 1:36 PM permalink
Stop Hounding phone calls from debt collectors
QUESTION: When I was 23, I bought a car and financed it. I erroneously used my brothers ss# and it was reposessed 6 months later. This was approx 1991. My brother and I are now getting hounded and threatened by a collection agency for this debt. Isn't too old? And they won't stop calling ? What do I do?



ANSWER: The first thing I have to know in order to answer your question is what state you live in. They won't stop calling? You should learn how to put a stop to that nonsense.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------



QUESTION: I live in MO, the bank is in OH and the collector is in MA.

Answer: Missouri has a 10 year statute of limitations on such things so assuming it was repossessed in 1991 then the statute of limitations would have run out in 2001. That does not mean they have to stop hounding you however. It does not even mean that they cannot sue you and get a judgment because they can do all of those things if you don't take the proper steps to prevent it. It may be illegal for them to do some things but unless you are willing to learn the proper steps and act on them they may very well file a complaint against you and get a judgment. Once they have a judgment they can proceed to garnish wages or do whatever it takes to collect the money. So what to do to stop the hounding on the phone? The first thing to do is to go get a digital voice recorder that has a USB port on it so you can download the recordings. I use an Olympus DS-2200 which is a special Dictation type of voice recorder and costs $585.00 but I also have an Olympus WS-100 and 3 Sony ICD-P28 recorders. Those cost around $100 each. The WS-100 or similar model will do just fine. You don't even need to hook them up to the telephone line if you have a speaker phone. Just put the caller on speaker phone and turn on the recorder. Set it near the phone or even hold it close to the speaker on the phone. If you don't have a speaker phone then you will have to get a recording controller from Radio Shack and hook it into the phone line. I like the digitals much better than the old tape types because the digital files will download directly into your computer and you can rename the files to indicate the dates, name of caller or however you want to. Another way you can do it which I also do is to use an older computer with a 56K modem card in it and a huge hard drive and a program specifically designed to record the calls and all the information you need to identify the call. Those programs can also be used the same way telephone answering machines do. And yes, that sounds like a lot of redundancy and for people who use their phones in the way that most folks do it would be a lot of unnecessary redundancy but for me it is vital to have all of that because all calls are automatically forwarded to my cell phone. I can catch the phone connected to 405-227-9423 if I am in the office because that is a Vonage line while 405-616-7901 is a standard phone line and the transfer to my cell phone is forwarded so fast that the office phone itself never rings. If I am not in the office and pick up on my cellphone when driving or whatever I simply turn on the digital I always carry and record the call that way if it needs recording. So I need the level of redundancy I have but most folks don't. Of course, we then have to turn to the problem of legality of recording. I wait until the debt collector gives me his little starting spiel and then tell him that I also have to inform him that he is being recorded for quality control and training purposes and he has the right to remain silent and anything he says can and probably will be used against him in a court of law. That usually gets some response or other and often they just hang up which is OK because we probably didn't want to talk to him anyway. If he stays on the line and continues to talk the next step is to use the 18 questions to be found at http://www.creditwrench.com/18questions.html and make them answer all 18 questions and when they refuse to answer tell them that you demand they validate the debt and that you dispute the debt and each and every portion thereof and bid them a nice day and hang up. That is how you stop the hounding phone calls.
Sat, November 10, 2007 - 9:08 AM permalink
Summons from Eskanos and Adler 
Name: Lynn



Subject: Summons from Eskanos and Adler



Question: QUESTION: Hello,



A process server just arrived at my house, and served me with papers that have someone else's name on them. She asked for me, so I am assuming she gave me the wrong papers.

The complaint is filed against me, by Capital One. I am confused though. I pulled my credit report several months ago, and it states the account has been "charged off." Can a company sue me when the account has already been charged off. The lawyer that is named is Eskanos and Adler, a known collection agency. Is this legal? Also, what is my situation with not even been served the correct paperwork?

I was just married, and my husband knows about my past credit faux pas, and I want to get this right. Can they attach his accounts?

Thank you.

ANSWER: It does sound logical that she gave you the wrong set of papers. I doubt that the server will even realize the mistake and would claim you were served properly. You might be able to cause a bit of embarrassment over the mistake but I doubt it would be worth doing. I'd be more inclined to just go to the clerk of the court and hand in the paperwork you received and say you are not that person and if the address is wrong too also say you don't live at that address and let them sort it out. Then I'd ask the clerk of the court to see my public record and find the judgment, pull the file and get copies of the papers you were supposed to have received in the first place. There may be some law or other in your state that would let you escape the summons temporarily but the plaintiff would just correct the mistake and do it over again. So let's move on. Charge off is an internal bookkeeping mechanism. Here is how it works. The banks have to keep a certain percentage of their capital in a reserve or escrow type of account by law. They can't use money from that account to make loans or for operating expenses. But when an account goes bad they can "charge it off" to that reserve account and take out that amount of money and put it back into their regular lending account. Every payment somebody makes puts a small amount of money into the account and every loan that goes bad reduces it by the amount of that loan. It has nothing to do with whether or not you owe the money so yes, they can sue you when the account has already been charged off. So now you have been sued by a known junk debt buyer and yes, that is legal provided they do it correctly. Whether they do it correctly usually makes no difference to the courts who grant them judgments without question as to legality or much of anything else. It is a paper mill and getting the judgment usually takes about 5 minutes or so of the court's time if that. It usually don't take much longer no matter how much you argue or what kind of defense you offer. The only question before the court in most cases is whether you owe the debt or not unless you can offer material evidence proving your innocence or non-responsibility for the debt. That's why it is much better to use my methods which teach you to spot their violations of law and take them to federal court where the only question before the court is whether they broke the law, how they broke the law and how often they broke the law. If you have them cold on several violations they are often more than willing to just forgive the debt and get it off your credit reports rather than having to explain to a federal judge why they broke the law and getting rapped for it. So how can a 3rd party debt collector just forgive the debt and forget about collecting it? They can do that if they bought the debt from the original creditor and the original creditor no longer has any right title or interest in the debt. That may or may not be true in your case but it is in a high percentage of debt related cases. Esakanos and Adler is not only a known collection agency but a known junk debt buyer who pays pennies on the dollar for debts then brings suit in the name of the original creditor even though that original creditor has no interest in the case whatever. And of course, if you want to use that to your advantage you must find out whether the plaintiff in your case is a true party of first interest in the case or not. Most local courts could care less about that but federal courts do care about such things if your argument is properly presented. Now then, on to your last question. Can they attach your husband's accounts? First of all, in order to more accurately answer your question I would need to know specifically what kind of accounts you are talking about and what state you live in. If you live in a community property state then yes, they probably can. So tell me what state you live in and what accounts you are talking about and I can give you better answers. Another factor might be whether your name is also on those accounts. If it is then maybe they can try to go after them. If you would like to check to see if yours is a community property state you can find out at http://www.creditwrench.com/communitypropertystates.html



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------



QUESTION: Hello,

Thank you so much for your response.



I will go down and get the paperwork for myself, and return the other paperwork, no problem. 



I live in California, community prop state.  My husband and I have only been married for 3 weeks.  He owns the house, and has his own checking and savings.  My name is not on anything.  I maintain my own checking.  I have been unemployed since May 2007, and my unemployment is about to run out.  I also owe the IRS $50,000 in back taxes and currently have an installment agreement with them.  Until I am able to get a job and pay 1/2 of the mortgage, I pay my husband rent.  That has been our agreement.



That is our financial situation in a nutshell.



I have a few questions about the state vs. federal.



1.  How do I respond to the summons?



2.  Do I go to court and just let the judgement happen?



3.  In the meantime, should I file a federal suit?



4.  How will this effect my husbands finances? 



Thank you so much for your help.



Answer: In my opinion, the best way to respond to the summons is by motion for demand for more definitive statements. Do you just let the judgment happen? I sure would not advise you to do that. And as to filing a federal suit, you can do that but you must have solid causes of action to prevail. They must have violated one or more federal laws and the more they have violated the better. How will the judgment affect your husband's finances? In community property states he can be forced to pitch in and help pay for the debt.
Wed, November 7, 2007 - 7:43 PM permalink
Courtroom objections
Lawsuit Self-Help ... Step-by-Step

Tips & Tactics

Making Courtroom Objections ... #2

If you want to win in court, you must learn how to make objections, and the time to learn is before you go to court. If you don't, the other side will take advantage of you, and the judge will be powerless to stop it ... if you don't object.Win with Jurisdictionary!

Watch "Law & Order" and other courtroom dramas to hone your objections skills. Watch with a friend. Compete to see who can make proper objections first - you, your friend, or the actor on screen.

See if you can state the legal grounds for your objections. Here are a few of the common objections you'll learn how to use with our affordable step-by-step lawsuit self-help course.

  • Asked and Answered
  • Badgering the Witness
  • Best Evidence Rule
  • Competence
  • Counsel is Testifying
  • Facts Not in Evidence
  • Hearsay
  • Outside the Pleadings
  • Prejudice
  • Qualifications
  • Relevance
  • Calls for Speculation

You'll be surprised how much damaging testimony is admitted on TV shows - damaging evidence that would never be admitted if proper objections were made in time. When it's your case, you can't afford to let the other side offer damaging testimony. Practicing your objections with courtroom dramas on TV will prepare you for situations where your opponent will play every dirty trick in the book to get facts into evidence that could destroy your case - facts you must keep out with prompt and proper objections.

Watching courtroom dramas will help. Practice makes perfect.

Our Jurisdictionary step-by-step self-help course will show you what objections to make, when to make them, and why you must make them to prevent crooked lawyers from offering damaging testimony that will destroy your case.

Whether you order our affordable course or not, you must learn to make effective objections to protect yourself and win your lawsuit.

Jurisdictionary makes lawsuit procedure so easy an 8th grader can learn it all in a single weekend.

Overcome courtroom corruption using the rules of the court itself. Force judges to obey their own rules and put a stop to the crooked games lawyers play to get damaging testimony into the record.

Our affordable $219 course truly is extremely easy-to-learn!

Most people can finish our course in a single weekend!

Visit www.Jurisdictionary.com to learn more!

Forward this email to your friends. They'll thank you for it.

Our affordable 24-hour, 4-CD step-by-step course includes:

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  • 2 audio CDs that cover practical lawsuit tactics and procedures
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  • Laminated EasyGuide to the Rules of Court
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Ask anyone who has our course. Jurisdictionary Works!

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Mon, November 5, 2007 - 11:10 AM permalink
Name: Mary



Subject: I'm disabled and can no longer pay my bills.



Question: QUESTION: I've been disabled for 7 years. Social Security Disability is my only income. I didn't think I'd be like this for so long. I thought I'd either be better by now or dead. I have good credit and never made minimum payments on my credit cards, expecting to be able to pay them off, but often finding myself putting more and more on these cards. I asked my creditors of help by lowing interest or monthly payments but none of them did anything for me. In fact, shortly after one of them increased my APR by 6.5%, and another increased my monthly payments. Bottom line is that next month, after I pay my living expences I will not be able to pay these other creditors. What do I do? Do I contact them and if so what do I say? I am full aware that they can not collect anything from me since my only form of income is Social Security Disability. I was told to just stop paying them and to let things take there couse, but that thought makes me nervous. Having to wait for them to call repeated then send me to collections, perhaps even sue. All that stress to get no where since it's more likely that my financial situation will be worse then it is now. The only info I've been able to find is what to do when collectors are coming after you. Nothing on what I should or can do at this point. What do I do from here?



ANSWER: I wouldn't worry about any of the above if you are on SSI. I would advise that you just sit back and wait until they sue you then go tell the judge that you are disabled and on SSI. They may get the judgment they seek but they can't collect on it.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------



QUESTION: I'm just wondering what to expect and do once I stop paying these creditors. How long would things take to progress if they due deside to sue me? Is the only way to get them to not call me repeatedly is to send the collection agency a written notice? Is there anything else I should know and expect.



ANSWER: You can expect that they will start calling you for a while trying to get you to pay. Then after about 150 to 180 days they will sell or assign the debt to a debt collector who will also ring your phone off the wall. You need to learn how to deal with those phone calls and my web page at http://www.creditwrench.com/18questions.html will teach you how to do that. You can also send them a limited cease & desist letter telling them to stop contacting you by phone. Then after a while they will probably attempt to sue you for the money.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------



QUESTION: I am just a few days into not paying my creditors. I have already received several calls, some automated and some live people. The live people are already rude and disrespectful. I requested the address to send the creditors a cease & desist letter and 2 people have hung up on me and I've also been given 2 different address to send that letter. From what I've heard that a cease and desist letter is only valid for use with collection agencies. That the original lender can call all they want. And that the FDCPA rules do not apply to these calls. Is this accurate? I also was wondering if I should notify these creditors that I can not pay them, due to lack of income and receiving disability, or should I deny that I owe the money? Most of the sample cease and desist letter I've seem state that I would be disputing the debt. I don't dispute that I owed the money, I just can no longer afford to pay because of extended time on disability and constant increase of my living expenses.



Answer: Above all, do not send cease & desist letters to either creditors or debt collectors. Sending Cease & Desist letters is a foolish idea taught by Mr. Bud Hibbs and other dangerous teachers on the Internet. They are dangerous because they first of all rob you of the only chance you have to win against debt collectors and creditors alike and at the same time they leave debt collectors with little or no other choice but to file a lawsuit against you because you have left them no other way to communicate with you. So if you decide to follow such dangerous advice then you had better be well prepared to deal with your problems in court! Of course, if you sent cease & desist letters then you destroyed the only chance you had to gather evidence to use against them in court. Getting their phone calls and answering them to the greatest extent possible is the only way you will ever get to destroy them and keep from getting judgments and garnishments against you and maybe even losing valuable property to them. You know well in advance of your creditors when trouble strikes and the time has come when you will not be able to pay what you owe. When trouble strikes that is the time to get prepared by first of all buying yourself a good digital voice recorder with a USB port so you can download and save the conversations. Of course, since original creditors start calling and bugging you there isn't much you can do or say to them so if you can't pay then you might as well just ignore their calls if you can't pay up. During the time original creditors are all that are calling maybe your situation will improve to the point where you can get back on your feet but if that don't happen and they move to the next phase which is sending your account to 3rd party debt collectors then is the time to start gathering your evidence of their violating the law. So while you are still in the original creditor phase you have the opportunity to start learning about FDCPA, FCRA and other consumer protection laws. When the debt collectors start calling is when the time has arrived to start using my list of 18 questions and gathering the evidence you will need in the court battles that are certain to be in your future. There is seemingly no end to the number of mistakes they will make. Let me give you a prime example. Many years ago I had a problem with Providian. They closed the account and sold it to a debt collector and the fight was on. It was sold to a succession of debt collectors over time and one day I got a summons to court. It was well beyond the statute of limitations for bringing suit in Oklahoma when the lawyer filed his suit against me. I filed my answer to the court and the lawyer immediately dismissed his case. I wanted to sue that lawyer but was told by other lawyers that I couldn't do that in Oklahoma so I let the matter drop foolishly thinking that they knew what they were talking about which of course they didn't. A couple of weeks ago I got a call from Peter T. Roach, a famous debt collection law firm wanting me to pay my Providian account. The caller started telling me items off my credit report and that was the first mistake they made. They have no permissible purpose for pulling my credit reports because they have not proven that I owe the debt which I do not because the debt is now more than 10 years old and is outlawed under Oklahoma law. They have the ability to pull my credit but they don't have a permissible purpose until they have verified who I am and whether or not they have the right person among other things. In the course of the call several other illegal acts were committed and of course duly recorded. Then they called again a few days later and as soon as they heard me start asking the 18 questions they just hung up. I still don't have a demand letter from them but when and if it comes I will demand validation and we will go from there. Of course, they will have to send it to an attorney here in Oklahoma to continue with collection efforts and that is when I will file a federal case against them. Then I will start in on the local attorney and get that law firm on it's way to federal court as well. I certainly hope that the local attorney will file a second lawsuit on me trying to collect the debt. But what would have been the result if I had sent cease & desist letters to them instead of doing things the right way? I would probably have lost my case in court the first time and would not be prepared to deal them a bruising blow this time either. I might even end up having to pay the debt twice. Ok, so you say they are already rude and disrespectful. What else would you expect out of a debt collector? They don't even have any real self respect because if they did they would go get a decent job in the first place. (LOL) You requested their address and they hung up on you. There is two violations right there. They have to give you a disclosure statement every time they call. Now you want to know if a c&d is only valid for use with collection agencies. Yes, original lenders can call all they want to under federal law but what about state law where you live? Maybe they can and maybe they can't. Should you deny that you owe the money? Of course not. You know that you do owe the money so why tell a lie when it isn't necessary? And the fact that you can no longer afford to pay for whatever reason isn't an excuse either, it is just a fact of your life and financial condition. Constantly increasing living expenses isn't an excuse either. In fact there is no excuse for not paying what you owe. But since you can't pay you had better start figuring out how to live with the results which you can't help either but don't make things worse for yourself by listening to dangerous teachers and doing foolish things. So who are among America's most dangerous teachers? All you have to do to find that information is to go to Google and put the phrase AMERICA'S MOST DANGEROUS TEACHERS in the search box and pick on the first link that pops up and you will know at least a few of those whom you should avoid at all costs. You should also be aware that if you are on SSI your checks cannot be garnished but there may be other things they can do to collect their money from you depending on state and federal law. Learn to defend yourself instead of how to ruin any chance you might have had.
Sat, November 3, 2007 - 7:53 AM permalink

Recession Inevitable, Card Charge Offs to Rise: Analyst

November 1, 2007
A Morgan Stanley analyst paints a pretty dire picture of the U.S. economy and its impact on credit card issuers in a research note on Discover Financial.
by Burney Simpson

insideARM.com

November 1, 2007







The U.S. credit card industry will be hit by a widespread consumer credit recession due to the dead-on-its-feet housing market, credit tightening, rising unemployment, an overwhelming debt burden, and a return to a normal bankruptcy environment, an influential Morgan Stanley analyst writes this week.

Kenneth A. Posner uses his latest write up on the prospects for Discover Financial Services (NYSE: DFS) to predict a dire 2008 and 2009 for credit card issuers and consumers, noting that Morgan Stanley’s U.S. economists have forecast unemployment rates rising to at least 5.4 percent and possibly 6 percent. The U.S. Department of Labor reported an unemployment rate of 4.7 percent in September.

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Posner forecasts credit card issuers will see charge offs peaking at 6.5 percent in 2009, due to the disaster taking place in housing, U.S. consumers’ all-time-high debt service burden of 14.5 percent of disposable income, the 5 percent to 7 percent growth in revolving credit in the last 18 months (compared with the typical 2 percent to 4 percent), and bankruptcy filings that have increased 43 percent year-to-date.

Posner applies forecasts from Morgan Stanley’s U.S. economists and its large-cap bank research team to project the impact of a recession on Discover. In a summary of these experts’ projections, Posner writes, “While we cannot be sure what lies around the corner, a number of risk factors suggest that financial institutions will experience widespread deterioration in consumer credit quality.”

Following his predictions of gloom-and-doom for the economy, Posner rates Discover as Underweight-V, giving it a price target of $15 a share, down from its recent close of $20.14. Morgan Stanley uses the V to stand for More Volatile, with the stock indicating it has a more than 25 percent chance of a 25 percent price move up or down in a month.

Discover has its strengths, writes Posner, and could face the recession better than its card-issuing rivals. It is “more careful with credit,” so its charge offs will rise “to 5.5 percent by year-end 2008 and peak at 6.0 percent in 2009,” according to Posner. In contrast, Discover’s charge off rate was 3.7 percent in its fiscal third quarter, compared with a U.S. average of 4.4 percent as reported in the S&P Credit Card Quality Index.

It also appears to have fewer problem cardholders, with about 20 percent carrying subprime level credit scores, “compared to 30 percent at many other issuers.” In addition, it grew card managed receivables at a 6.3 percent rate in its fiscal second quarter, compared to an industry-wide growth rate of 6.9 percent, according to the Federal Reserve.

In addition to Discover, Posner follows American Express, Capital One, MasterCard, Nelnet, SLM Corp., and others.

I've been predicting that this would happen for about 2 years now. On top of the problems mentioned above, we have a much worse one that will most likely cause a collapse of the entire American economy. There is the fact that the government is now spending more than 70% of the money they spend. Confidence in the American dollar is rapidly deteriorating overseas and the value of the dollar against other world currencies such as the EURO. We are being forced into buying EUROS with which to buy oil because some producers will no longer accept dollars for payment of their oil and the price of oil is escalating rapidly as well. Foreign news sources are beginning to talk about an impending crash of the American economy. This inevitably means that we will go to bed one Friday night soon and wake up to find that when the banks reopen on Monday our money will have been devaluated by some huge percentage, at least 50% or more.



We will then be stuck with a high priced home, high priced cars we can no longer pay for and no money to pay for the fuel even if we could afford the payments on them. The American economy will be in a recession far worse than the one we suffered in 1929. Unemployment will hit record highs never before heard of.



That is the likely outcome and bleak future for America.

Thu, November 1, 2007 - 11:12 AM permalink
Civil Judgement and how to defeat them
Name: Lakiesha



Subject: Civil Judgement



Question: I have a credit card that was opened in 2001.I live in Ohio and now they have sent papers that there is a civil lawsuit against me for $3000.At this time I have a van that is in me and my husbands name its worth $1500. And he has the house and all utilities in his name. I work 5 months a year. I have requested to pay them over the next year, but they attorney office has said I must show that I tried to get a personal loan through my bank and then possibly they can make arrangements for about $300 a month for 3-4 months and then use my income tax to pay the remaining balance. My questions are can they put a lien against my house with it being in my husbands name only. And if they are not going to work with me then maybe I should take my name off of the one checking account that we have together and let them try to garnish me for all of nothing..what should I do???



Answer: It is indeed sad to see so many people with such a defeatist outlook. I say that because the last part of your post ends with "let them try to garnish me for all of nothing." What that says to me is that you believe that there is nothing you can do except let them get a judgment and then try to garnish you. It says you have already resigned yourself to what you and millions more people believe is the inevitable.



It does not need to be that way. While it does take a lot of learning, those debt collectors and attorneys can be beaten and my students are doing it all the time. You can too if you really want to. Now then, on to your questions. I would recommend that you have him take your name off the van even though they can't take your only means of transportation in most states unless it is of an extremely high value and maybe not even then. If you owe money on it then I wouldn't worry too much about it. In any case, it wouldn't hurt to be on the safe side and remove your name from it.



There may be some insurance ramifications there in your state so I would check with your insurance company to be sure that you will still be able to stay on the insurance and drive the van but there probably won't be any problem there either. Just check to be on the safe side.



Can they put a lien against the house with it being in your husbands name only? Well, if you are in a community property state then they probably can but otherwise not. And yes, I would say that you might want to take your name off the checking account too. But those are just small safeguards against immediate ruin. The real truth is that even if you have no assets, aren't working, and claim that you are poorer than the proverbial church mouse you can count on the fact that they will put enough pressure on you to convince you that you must somehow or another find some way to pay at least something on a regular basis.



Now then, let's change the outcome at least a bit if not altogether. They have apparently served you with a summons which says you have a certain number of days to respond to the summons not counting the day upon which you were served. So you respond to the summons with a properly prepared motion for more definitive statements from the plaintiff instead of the answer containing nothing but poor excuses for why you did not pay thereby instantly losing the case. Then you learn how to follow that up with more motions, demand for interrogatories, admissions and demand for production of documents. At least make them work for their money like you have to. Don't go down without even a whimper.
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 7:50 PM permalink
GET A LOAN TO CONSOLIDATE DEBT QUESTION
Name: Adam



Subject: Loans & Insurance



Question: About 2 years ago i took out a £5000 loan with Nationwide to use towards purchasing my car, about 6 months later i took a smaller loan £2350 to pay for an instructors course i was doing.I have loan insurance with the smaller one but was advised that i was not eligible for insurance with the Nationwide loan because i had not been employed with my present employer for at least 6 months. Then in march 2006 i had an accident and broke my spine. This left me unable to work and the so called loan insurance didn't pay the loan as they state they would. This left me with arrears on the loan which before time spiraled out of control. I have have number of letters all the time from collection agencies requesting all the money or they will proceed with legal action. It's all very intimidating but I'm not really sure how to go about it. I'm working now but the money i ow and my outgoings amount to more than i earn. Is there any way I can get a loan to consolidate all and just have one monthly payment?



Answer: I would imagine that it would be most difficult to obtain a loan to consolidate all the debt(s) since your credit is probably wrecked due to their adverse reports to the credit bureaus. That is usually the case. You may have a cause of action for a lawsuit against the loan insurance company if you have a copy of the loan insurance agreement or can get a copy of it. What you will need to watch out for is they file a lawsuit against you and in order to properly defend against that you will need to keep all those letters and a careful record of all phone calls including the phone number they called from, date, time and what was said and even if you didn't answer the phone what messages were left on your answering machine or what the caller said when you answered the phone. You need to get active and demand that they validate the debt and inform them that you dispute the debt as well if you have not already done so. You can learn more about this type of problem and how to combat it properly by visiting my web site and my message board. You can also call me at 405-616-7901 for personal consultation.
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 3:40 PM permalink
lawsuit papers served today
Name: Rachel



Subject: served lawsuit papers



Question: I was served papers today, stating that I need to provide "Answer" the following Monday after 10 days. According to the paperwork the lawsuit was filed in 2005, but I just received them 10/2007. The credit card is an old charged off account. On my credit report it shows that that the last payment made was Feb 2003, that is when it first shows 30 days late and the last reporting on credit report shows Sept 2003 as 120 days late. I was laid off from work and was unable to pay so it did go into default. What are my options? I live in Texas. Thanks



Answer: This one seems fairly simple to beat. You can't use the statute of limitations defense if the lawsuit was filed in 2005 but laches ought to apply. I'll have to do a bit of study to be sure of that but quickly thinking it very well might apply. In any case you would not want to "answer" the complaint but rather respond to it.



While I can't advise you what to do I can say that if I were served with a summons I would respond with a motion for more definitive statements if allowed by the state's rules of civil procedure and if not then I would respond with a demand for a bill of particulars. So you will have to study your Texas Rules of Civil Procedure to see which one to use.



One state that will give you problems using that approach is Utah which has yet another approach but demand for more definitive statement is still workable as an answer there. Connor's Rules of Procedure for Texas is also a great resource for finding out about such things but that is a sort of expensive book so you would want to visit your local law library if you want to consult that book.



Next I would want to follow that up with demand for and production of documents. As soon as the Plaintiff provided answers to my demand for more definitive statements I would most likely want to use them to craft my interrogatories and admissions if they came back with meaningful answers and if not then I would most likely want to file motion to compel.



In the process I would be looking for some violations of federal law and see if I could hit them with a nice federal lawsuit just to give them some more to chew on. By the time they got to the Rule 26(f) meeting in federal court they ought to begin to see the light and start asking what it would take to make me go away. Of course, at that point I would demand that they dismiss their current case in lower court with prejudice, remove it from all my credit reports, pay my court costs and maybe some cash on top of that. If they turned down my demands they could then tell the story to a federal judge and jury.



By that time I might very well be able to amend my complaint to add more problems for them to chew on. Trying to win in lower courts is a tough, tough proposition but once you get them into federal court it is an entirely different matter. The only problem is that in order to get there and be successfully you just about need a mind that operates like a steel bear trap.



In other words, you have to quit thinking about whether you owe the debt or not and how you have a moral obligation to pay them what you owe and start thinking about what they have done to you to deprive you of your rights under the law and how to use the law to your own advantage instead of letting them take you to the cleaners simply because they know more law than you do.



You can't possibly know all of the tricks and traps I do unless you have also been studying the law for the last several years. That is why I invite you to visit my web site at http://www.creditwrench.com and my message board at where you can learn lots of the things you need to know to even have a crying chance to win the day.



You can also call me at 405-616-7901 most any time.
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 8:29 PM permalink
Arbitration Dismissed with Prejudice 
Name: Helen



Subject: Arbitration Dismissed with Prejudice



Question: QUESTION: An account with MBNA was sent to wolpoff & Abramson. There was a clause in  my agreement that any matters would be determined by binding arbitration. Last year, September 2006, an order was entered in my favor. It was dismissed with prejudice. Now Nco Financial is trying to collect on this same debt. I thought once it was dismissed with prejudice, it could not be brought up again. Please inform. any info will be greatly appreciated!







ANSWER: Yes, they can bring it up again but if they do you need to do the same things all over again to get it dismissed a second time. You also need to inform NAF that the case was already dismissed in an earlier decision. Then they will probably try to sue you in local court.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------



QUESTION: Thank you for your answer, however, I am still confused as to why they are able to pursue this matter again, being that it was dismissed with prejudice. I thought it could only be brought up again if it was dismissed without prejudice. Also, I am a bit concerned about the part about them suing me in local court. The agreement I had with MBNA clearly states that any matter would be handled through arbitration, I received another copy of this agreement when the claim was initially sent to arbitration. It seems that they are not holding to their own agreement.



Answer: Sorry, I missed the part about it having been dismissed with prejudice. But who ruled that is was dismissed with prejudice? In any event, if they bring it back up it will be up to you to plead the res judicata issue with the trier of fact. If you don't bring it up with a properly prepared res judicata defense then don't expect anybody else to bring it up. They can sue you in local court regardless of how the arbitration forum ruled. You can also raise the res judicata issue in local court and hope the judge will listen to it.



Yes, the agreement does clearly state that any matter would be handled through arbitration but is the purchaser of a credit card debt also bound by the terms and conditions of the original contract? If they are then they all break the contract every time they bring a case in local court without taking it to arbitration first then having the local courts reduce it to a judgment.



If they break one portion of the contract does the rest of the contract still remain in full force and effect? If they must obey all terms and conditions of the agreement and the agreement says that the laws of the company's home state are the laws that control all litigation then how can local courts in other states ignore that and use the laws and rules of procedure in their state instead?



Are the terms and conditions of the agreement between the parties also bestowed upon the purchaser of a credit card agreement upon cancellation of the agreement by the bank or does the purchaser of debt even have the right to sue upon the terms of the contract?



Is the named plaintiff in the case the true party of first interest in the case of is he a 3rd party debt collector hiding behind the skirts of the original creditor? Has the plaintiff named all the indispensable parties to the case?



What about the fact that the total amount of money that has been loaned out between all the banks and credit card companies is such an unimaginably huge amount of money that it may very well exceed all the money in circulation at any given time? If it isn't that much then it certainly is somewhere close. So how can that be? Where does all that money come from? It certainly don't come from out of thin air as so many self styled Internet "experts" would have their students believe. It also isn't supplied by the Federal Reserve or the Bilderburgers or the Rothchilds or the Kennedy's or even the IMF. Then on top of the money loaned by credit card companies you have all the money loaned out to homeowners and all the money loaned to businesses and to buy all those nice new cars and trucks.



If you stop to think about it that is a couple of oceans full of cash and a few mountains of debt that has gone sour. So where does all that cash come from? If it don't come from the credit card companies own pockets and they don't borrow it from the Federal Reserve or the U.S. Treasury then where does it come from and who is really left holding the bag and not named as plaintiff or co-plaintiff in the case against you?



These and many more such questions are the things that creditwrench students learn about and how to use their knowledge to win. On top of that, each and every case is individual in nature although they all seem similar. Different attorneys make different mistakes in different cases and if they hope to defeat the Plaintiff they must either have the knowledge and experience to be able to analyze each and every document they file and that the Plaintiff files to spot those mistakes and use them to their best advantage if they can. Most attorneys never reach the level of expertise that is required to spot all the mistakes made by their opponents and if possible use them to the advantage of their clients.



One way to be able to do that is to have a library of good books and research resources to draw on. Resources such as Pacer which is the national data base of U.S. Court cases, the National Consumer Law Library, Shepard's case Law. West Law and many more. There are indispensable books such as Connor's Rules of Procedure and Connor's Rules of Evidence for federal and each of the 50 states. Then there are law libraries to draw on. Almost all of these resources cost big bucks so even attorneys don't use all of them but it seems that folks somehow expect to go to a free message board and get all the expertise they need for free, but it simply can't work that way.



So while I am willing to give lots of free information and help I simply can't just give it all away for free because I have big bills to pay too.



But let me finish with your statement that it seems that they are not holding to their own agreement. I have to agree with you but the answer is that they never do and creditwrench students learn all about that and how to hold their feet to the fire.



You can learn much more by visiting my message board at http://consumers.creditwrench.com or by calling me at 405-616-7901 or by visiting my web site at http://www.creditwrench.com
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 12:54 AM permalink
OnMyList: List of useful web sites for consumers

Creditwrench web site:

This is my home page. It is actually a blog and constantly changes. Most of the articles are copies of articles that I have written as answers to questions people have asked me on http://www.allexperts.com where I am quickly gaining attention as one of the most knowledgeable and helpful experts in the area of finance and beating up on debt collectors. .

  • Creditwrench message board:

    http://consumers.creditwrench.com is one of the few consumer advocacy message forums on the internet that is not filled up with useless chit chat. It is strictly moderated to keep out spammers and nonsense postings. Our resources section is a gold mine of information. We hold regular Friday night Conference calls starting at 7:00 P.M. and they are open to the public and free of any cost or obligation. We are the premier chapter of the Jurisdictionary Clubs of America which is an educational club owned and operated by Florida Attorney Frederick Graves. We hold monthly meetings on the second Thursday of each month at Coit's Root Beer Stand located on the corner of 24th and S. Western in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Meetings start at 7:00 P.M. and are free and open to the public. You can always contact me at (405) 616-7901 to get help with your problems.

  • 18 questions to ask debt collectors when they call.:

    When debt collectors call they always use a canned speech script to keep their conversation on track and you on the defensive until you pay up. Their conversations usually violate FDCPA in one way or another. They are paid on a commission basis depending on how much money they collect for the company. They have a quota to meet before they get any bonus. Needless to say they don't want to waste valuable time trying to collect from people who aren't going to pay up so if you can't pay up and want to avoid their abusive harassment then you need a script too and you have to interrupt their canned speech and put them on the defensive. My list of 18 questions will do just that. It makes them answer your questions and when they refuse to answer one of them you simply tell them that you dispute the debt and every portion of it and tell them to have a nice day and hang up. If they call right back then make them go through the whole script all over again and they will soon stop calling altogether. Soon you will be wishing they would call so you can have some more fun with them. Be sure to keep a log of all calls they make, including the date, time and phone number they used to call with. Be sure to ask them whether they are recording the call or not then tell them you are sure they won't mind that you are recording the call as well. If they object to that tell them that you record all calls to your phone and if they don't want to be taped then don't call. Tell them that if they continue the conversation they are agreeing to be taped. Believe me, they won't keep on bothering you after 3 or 4 calls.

  • Avoiding mortgage fraud:

    This web site will teach you how to avoid mortgage fraud when buying or refinancing your home.

  • Here comes the Judge:

    This is a great site for doing legal research on federal lawsuits. It is a searchable data base of over 900 federal cases dealing with various issues.

  • Here is another searchable data base of federal cases:

    Another great legal resource searching site

  • Debt collector's data base.:

    Debt collector's data base. This data base contains the contact information for thousands of debt collectors. If you can't find the debt collector who is hounding you here is the place to start looking.

  • Magna Carta News:

    This blog features news about Oklahoma and Oklahoma legislative news.

    • Check out this list at OnMyList, where you can list your pants off!



    Wed, October 24, 2007 - 10:20 AM permalink
    originally published at CREDITWRENCH
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