Existing yet Maintaining :)
Proud Woman
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 4:19 PMl wonder if some of the women of tribe don't occasionally wonder if l've got something against my own gender. There are moments during conversations like these when the women are rallying for each other and the one whose feminism was insulted (sometimes valid, sometimes not). l may support their indignation to a certain extent, often strongly support it, but there comes a point in every conversation where one woman says - or replies to - the one thing that turns the discussion into a gender war. That one thing may or may not have been said by a man, but in an instant, what was meant to be a mature, healthy, interactive movement has turned into an ugly arsenal, one the women of the group will immediately avail themselves of, and the men, feeling directly responsible for the hundreds of years their ancestors properly fucked up for them, fight back. lt's a vicious cycle, and it's time to stop playing these boring fucking games and start TALKING. And listening. And LEARNING.
l'm not exluding the men here, but as a woman, with a point to make about feminism, l am currently addressing the women.
Anyone who's talked to me knows of my sexual violations as a child and teen. l've been demoted based on my gender, bypassed for management, dealt with sexual harassment. l've been treated like a whore because l like sex, and l've been treated like a slow child by mere virtue of my gender. l even became a tomboy because it was the only way l could defy my automatic reaction to mistrust all men, and the only way l could be FRIENDS with them, and understand them differently. l FEEL YOUR PAIN, ladies. But l'd like to put things in perspective, because though a number of the men we're fighting perpetuate ugly stereotypes and test our fears and limits, a large number of these men are simply trying to treat women in the best way they know how. They don't want to deny you what makes you woman - hell, they benefit from that! - but they don't want to be blamed for something they didn't even do. We have to realize that the modern man is dealing with the speedy death of the gentleman and the chivalry that accompanies it, and the liberated woman who denies him the pleasure of simply opening her door for her because he believes in 'ladies first' and just wants to do it for her because he considers it a gesture of respect. And we complain about how we can't find any nice guys.
We still have a struggle ahead of us, ladies, but we're at a point where we can look back on history and realize we simply don't have to fight so much, so hard at the moment. Take a deep breath and look back at how far we've come.
publici.ucimc.org/mar2002/32002_5.htm
Notice that not everything listed there is positive. Could we have changed that? Notice the speed of progress between the 16th to 19th centuries and now?
We were granted suffrage right about where that list begins. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage
Right before the vibrator. Which was invented by a male doctor. Under the guise of lowering women's hysteria, and maybe that's what its genuine purpose is. But what if he had a strong, underground activist wife on his shoulder with whom he was drinking tea one day and casually said, "You know that thing, honey, that you do? The one that makes me jump a foot in the air? l've been thinking you should see if you can build a machine that does that. Sell it as, l don't know, something that calms women down - l know! Cures hysteria! - and start marketing it to them and fellow doctors. Women everywhere will love and thank you, men will love and thank you, the medical field will love and thank you, l will love and thank you, and we'd finally have the money for that trip to lndia we were talking about. Wouldn't that just be splendid?"....and that was that?
Does anyone but me notice that on that list the first condom is invented in 1597 and then nothing notable happens until the vibrator's invented? (l'm not sure why suffrage isn't in there, but we've already plugged it in right before vibes emerged anyway) Does anyone notice the VERY short span of time between every event that follows? Like knockin down dominoes and plowing a historical trail. Today, we are looking at a female candidate. lt may not happen, but it may, and what if it does? This is what we've been working for, right? lsn't this the pinnacle?
What if feminism simply sprouts from the simple advent of choosing a candidate and a little piece of plastic that vibrates and gives us immeasurable pleasure? We got our sex and we got our politics, and look how far we've come. Don't we still have both of those? So l don't see why we can't relax, and have a martini and quit fighting about it, because we've done good for ourselves. Give the men a break, embrace a little chivalry (cuz they really do just like you and wanna do nice shit for ya), do some nice shit for them cuz they've earned it for accepting and loving you even when you were crazy, and pat yourselves on the back. Ya done good. Cheers.
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 4:19 PM -
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Tue, October 23, 2007 - 7:33 PM
I'm totally down with gentlemanly behavior and don't see how it degrades either gender. I have, conversely been shocked at some women's seeing disdain for other members of their own gender. There is a happy medium and I hope to find a guy that knows it too. I have plenty of friends that feel the same way, we respect our progressive yet gentlemanly guys. It's a beautiful thing.
Maybe you and I, are on the younger end of things. Some of the ladies here have seen and been through things we would hate to see, not as a personal family experience, but on a more massive scale for far longer. Not to diminish what you have suffered, but there is a certain history that affects us. Don't sweat it. |
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Tue, October 23, 2007 - 8:27 PM
How can I argue against giving guys (like myself), who still have ingrained in us that "gentlemanly" behavior, a break? But let me add a bit of a caution, as a white straight male who's lived through (and supported) civil rights movements for people of color, women and gays. The black civil rights movement started in the 50's. This year, we've got high school kids hanging nooses in a tree to warn blacks away from the "white" area. The women's movement started in the '60's; women still don't have pay equality with men, the simplest and most obvious thing that could be achieved. The gay movement started in the 70's, and gays still can't get married. The struggle isn't over yet to get to a really equal opportunity society. So if some folks still get a little uptight when their hot buttons are pushed, I'm for giving them a break too. Of course, nice guy that I am, I'm usually for giving everyone a break.
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Tue, October 23, 2007 - 11:10 PM
Just to clarify...
"I'm totally down with gentlemanly behavior and don't see how it degrades either gender. I have, conversely been shocked at some women's seeing disdain for other members of their own gender. There is a happy medium and I hope to find a guy that knows it too. I have plenty of friends that feel the same way, we respect our progressive yet gentlemanly guys. It's a beautiful thing."
lt certainly is. "Maybe you and I, are on the younger end of things. Some of the ladies here have seen and been through things we would hate to see, not as a personal family experience, but on a more massive scale for far longer. Not to diminish what you have suffered, but there is a certain history that affects us. Don't sweat it." l understand that. But that's my point. lt's not a matter of disrespect for the mistreatment older generations have seen. Not at all. lt's pointing out that we're HERE. All the education we've done, all the work, regardless of how long we've been doing it - we are finally facing the possibility of having a female president of the United States of America, yo! A woman in one of the most powerful positions in the world. Does this not indicate positive change? l guess l'm trying to look at and appreciate the reality of what all that hard work means and what happens when it sees progress. l have many generations before me to thank for paving the way, and for contributing to the fact that l get to see REALLY good fucking history in the making. Throw in the fact that we also have a black candidate, and l have hope for the world. And for moving towards understanding and equality. Clearly something's happening, and l think women have had a great hand in that, and should now put their feet up, look around them, and smile and pat themselves on the back for all the hard work they've done. l think they deserve it. lt's not about what the patriarchy did to us right now. lt's about realizing that through all the incredibly challenging and painful obstacles, we are now in a position to enjoy the fact that our female candidate currently holds almost fifty percent of the vote, and THAT means this country is finally realizing that we need something NEW. And that's fucking cool. l'm just sayin it's a major positive step in centuries of sacrifice that should be savored - especially by those who dealt with so much more than l. |
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Tue, October 23, 2007 - 11:45 PM
Ah, so this is Hillary debating that's going on? As much as i applaud the fact that traditionally marginalized people are represented in the candidacy, I don't love her. I don't love Barack either. There goes pandering to the female black vote!
I would love for their candidacy to be based off fitness for the position and not their gender and race, that's when we ill have made some astounding leaps... when we no longer think anything of it. I see what you mean though. We have come a along way, baby! |
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Wed, October 24, 2007 - 3:54 AM
I agree Ali. We have acheived a lot; take n huge steps, and I think that we can relax a litte. Of course, that's not to say that we can totally let our gaurd down. We can maintain support for equal rights and maintain and hopefully elevate equal treatment as *ladies.*
Let me make you a fresh martini. |
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Wed, October 24, 2007 - 4:35 AM
I would absolutely love to get into this w/ you, but I'm getting ready to leave for CA, & can't for awhile. I can present some very good reasons for some of the things about feminism you question or challenge.. I agree that knee-jerk ANYTHING isn't generally good...& I'm certainly not a fan of absolutist, b/w thinking, regarding just about anything.
Still, I see some serious issues I'd like to address here... Just to open the door- I'd like to see more men deal w/ their own issues more effectively, for one thing, instead of caretaking them so much. Some do, God/dess bless 'em... but far from enough. Sure, some of that's necessary, & kind, but I think (in general) most of we women coddle them to much. That's no way to learn... I'd like to point out, that I am happy to say I've learned some wonderful things from men. For a year or so, I had a really interesting experience being part of an ongoing brother-sister circle, where we got into some intense stuff. And I've had close male friends all my life. While it's good to question stuff, Eric touched on a few things I'd like to approach more in depth... later. BTW, I am SO down w/ considerate, chivalrous behavior... After all, gentleman = gentle man. |
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Wed, October 24, 2007 - 4:40 AM
Umm, one more thing I just have to point out- we are so, SO far from being able to kick back & take it what progress we have made for granted. That doesn't mean we can't appreciate & be happy about how far we've come in some ways & some places, but there's also been some real backsliding... it's really weird, living through that.
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Wed, October 24, 2007 - 12:49 PM
I was taught at my grandmother's knee, starting at about age 3, about women's history, going far far far back to various matriarchies, as she was an historian. She would say "always remember, girl," and give me very simple lessons I have never forgotten. The first and foremost of which was, "If you want to have children, my girl, you'll need to have a man around. But you do NOT have to do what he says!! Never forget that!" I never did. From my grandmother I learned that there are better ways to run society than the way it is done now, and that women are better equipped to run societies. She had solid grounds for her opinions, and I believe she was right.
When the feminist movement was in full fly, I didn't participate because I thought these women were so short-sighted. To be *equal* with men? To my mind, that was taking a demotion. To participate equally with men in men's society? Dangerous and stupid, I thought. Who wants to be up to their necks in that? And yes, we've made great progress -- we've actually, here and in a few other spots on earth, achieved those two goals. Kinda sorta. But what we've gained in reality is terrible pressure and stress, and a society now based on two people making a very good living to be affordable -- not one. Which vastly increases the pressure and stress, and decreases the richness and quantity of love time and just being. And I never forget that in many parts of the world, and in many situations in this country also, there are innumerable women in quite total subjugation, still. Within their households, within repressive religions and communities. Women who live in cultures ruled by ideas that say women are really not actually human, and you can do what you will with them. And better keep them in line too, as they're dangerous. So I am still an ardent and rebellious feminist, but in my grandmother's style - though I don't really know how any of us can take the next steps. Especially not if we feel satisfied with the way things are now. I want much more than an equal chance at slavery. So much more! And also - people seem to forget that every single problem-causing oppressive male still out there, in every single culture, was raised by a woman. Carried in their wombs and nurtured at their breasts - to be what? To do what? To think what? I feel women bear much responsibility for much that is wrong with men - and have a unique opportunity to change those things, which too few make use of. One reason for some of the cultural repression is precisely to prevent a son from taking his mother seriously. BTW - I try to always behave like a gentleman. |
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Wed, October 24, 2007 - 1:42 PM
Yeah, well, those in power write the history books, and true power is never granted - it's taken. I try not to lose sight of the fact that this country voted down the Equal Rights Amendment. Every time I find myself in a conversation with someone who says, I'm not a feminist" I ask them whether they or their wife/daughter deserves equal pay for equal work or they should get paid less because they have a vagina.
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Wed, October 24, 2007 - 11:53 PM
"Ah, so this is Hillary debating that's going on?"
Actually, no. This discussion still managed to turn political, when the only reason l used Hillary as an example is that women are looking for some recognition and equality. l have at no point failed to remember we still have a lot of resistance to deal with, but how often do we women ask ourselves what constitutes a major victory in our work towards our goals? Don't we consider a female candidate a pretty big indication of positive results? Can we sit down and enjoy that for a minute before we go back to challenging stereotypes? Cuz it seems to me that the stereotypes right now matter less than the fact that a good number of this country, no matter what race or gender, seems to support something NEW. And l think that's a GOOD thing, and all l'm saying is we should stop and appreciate them roses. |
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Wed, October 24, 2007 - 11:58 PM
"I agree Ali. We have acheived a lot; take n huge steps, and I think that we can relax a litte. Of course, that's not to say that we can totally let our gaurd down. We can maintain support for equal rights and maintain and hopefully elevate equal treatment as *ladies.*
Let me make you a fresh martini." Thank you, it's been a long week, l could use one. And thank you for understanding the very simple point l was trying to make. And l agree we shouldn't pack it all up and let our guard down, or pretend we don't still have some change, but hey, we should recognize and appreciate our own successes - or we forget what we've been fighting for this whole time, and how much has changed. |
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Thu, October 25, 2007 - 12:08 AM
See, here's what l'm talking about
"Umm, one more thing I just have to point out- we are so, SO far from being able to kick back & take it what progress we have made for granted."
At no point did l ever say you should do that. Please tell me where l said that. Now that you can't find it, let me remind you of what l DID say. "We still have a struggle ahead of us, ladies, but we're at a point where we can look back on history and realize we simply don't have to fight so much, so hard at the moment. Take a deep breath and look back at how far we've come. " Some of the responses l've gotten jump STRAIGHT to 'Wait, there's more going on," or "we shouldn't be giving up", or "maybe others have different perspectives", and it's clear l've pushed some buttons, because again, we're back to the gender war. "l'd like to see males do this", "women still have lower salaries"....hell, it even went to include gay and lesbian rights, and l wasn't even talking about them, but hell, while they're part of the discussion, l think the gay community's come a damn amazing long way even at this point in time. l don't deny, and haven't at any point pretended that there isn't more work. But if you lose sight of what you're looking for, then all you end up doing is regurgitating the same thing to people to whom it doesn't apply, or to the same choir who's been making the same arguments and understands it ain't easy. lf y'all want to break out the many ways in which women and men have been faulted and screwed by each other, and how hard we all have it, without stopping for a moment to consider how much easier we ALL have it than earlier generations, you have at it. But if that's the angle you're coming from, then y'all are completely missing my point. Completely. |
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Thu, October 25, 2007 - 4:13 PM
Womanism
The word "feminism" is a bit of a stalking horse, and tends to have certain emotional baggage attached to it that takes a bit of unpacking to understand what a particular person means when they use it. If I can avoid using it at all, I usually will, in preference to more precise terms such as "pay equity," "reproductive freedom," or "the right to vote." Alice Walker has a term "womanism" which she uses in one of her essays, saying it is to feminism as purple is to lavender: deeper and richer, vibrant and more full-blooded.
I suspect if you support the inherent dignity of all people and their right to define their own experience and speak their own truth, that is the main point of feminism, and one that gets obfuscated or shot down by folks who want to maintain the status quo and the various unjust advantages it may give them, including the privilege of never having to question themselves or that advantage and privilege. |
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Thu, October 25, 2007 - 4:58 PM
Ah, womanism. l like that. Thanks, Mac.
Ali, who also happens to be a big Alice Walker fan |
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Sat, October 27, 2007 - 3:57 PM
Lily....
Great post, thank you.
"And I never forget that in many parts of the world, and in many situations in this country also, there are innumerable women in quite total subjugation, still. Within their households, within repressive religions and communities. Women who live in cultures ruled by ideas that say women are really not actually human, and you can do what you will with them." This is a big part of what motivated my blog as well. l've seen a LOT worse treatment in the countries l've grown up in than l've seen here. l may not have grown up during the women's revolution, but l saw some stuff in Kenya that would make your blood curdle, and you should read some of the laws on the law books there. We think a sex-toy legal scandal in Alabama is antiquated? Whoo! l'm not devaluing or dismissing anything here. l'm simply saying we got it good, better than we have in a long while, and better than a number of our neighbors worldwide. At some point - at least for me - it starts feeling selfish when l'm so busy talking about what l don't get from this society rather than appreciate what l DO get, and what l and many, many others before me have earned. |
