art and questions
Innocence / corruption
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 5:13 PM
this concept was (is) hard for me to embrace fully (and an area I probably need to heal)
Do you believe that everyone is basically innocent
or do you believe corruption exists, regardless if they are "good" people, causing pain and imbalance around them
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 5:13 PM -
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Mon, May 5, 2008 - 5:32 PM
Yes, everyone IS innocent.
I do actually believe everyone is innocent.. The argument against it is "Hitler" "Bush" Cheney" "Musalini" etc.
But, I don't buy it.. I think that these are misguided folk who actually think they are doing the right thing.. They're like little boys that never grew up emotionally, morally, etc. They were allowed to be the way they are by those around them, and just didn't know any better. I think corruption or "the black thumb" is pretty much an attempt at righting a percieved wrong based upon cloudy egoic filters that are formed in people as protective devices. Just my take on it.. But hey, the world is going to smack us all really hard really soon,, and debates like these will either be a thing of the past, or the very reason to stay alive wihout commiting suicide. |
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Mon, May 5, 2008 - 5:41 PM
it doesn't feel like a very meaningful construct to me. like it's one of those words that has too much baggage around it. do we all have some part of us from birth that can love and be loved? if that's the question yes.
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Mon, May 5, 2008 - 6:39 PM
Pure Love is Innocence,
We are all born innocent.
We all still retain that and can return to it if we choose. But we have to let go of everything we learned and keep only the things we've remembered. Pure Love. Innocence is Pure Love. Anything besides that is corruption. |
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Mon, May 5, 2008 - 7:05 PM
Yes, I believe everyone are internally innocent. We can look at the animal world as a case study: is the tiger innocent ? it definitely seems to commits act of violence that seem to us extremely cruel, but this is the way it is conditioned to be, and we should not see it as a cruel creature but just as the way it was created. Humans have the free will choice for their actions and so also their responsibility. However, we must remember that humans as well are not perfect, and they could make mistakes. You can look into youself and find that place that can make mistakes, that has hate, fear, anger and resentment in you. Even if for you it's only a small place you can still use it to understand others in which these qualities take over their soul. We have to find in ourselves compassion to every other human being becuase in the end we are all one and the same. We are all made our of love and can be love.
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Mon, May 5, 2008 - 7:06 PM
yes, I believe we are all innocent..though the word itself is confusing, a little bit...
I truly believe that every thing that every person does, they are doing because they think it's what's best. I know that sounds funny but I think it's true... their mind is making them believe it is good, for one reason or another... most likely because of past experiences and their own inner workings.. |
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Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:32 PM
because I am a stickler of the meaning of words
here is the dictionary definition of innocence: 1: state of not being guilty of a crime or offense 2: harmlessness in intention 3: freedom from sin or evil 4: a lack of experience of the world, especially when this results in a failure to recognize the harmful intentions of other people 5: ignorance of the serious consequences of something such as an act or remark 6: sexual inexperience 7: the state of being permitted by law I think true state of innocence is a fleeting human experience . I believe everyone will participate in actions and intentions towards others and themselves that cause harm and offense. I think wholeness, acceptance (forgiveness) is something that we can achieve with intention but it is not a given I do believe accountablity plays a part in the wholeness process, ( have been giving the matter a lot of thought) Aceptance , awareness and forgiveness is different from innocence in my opinion. I think when wrong actions are chosen there is a cause and effect. No blame and shame about it, just physics of cause and effect Hitlers and Bush's are not myths but realities their actions and choices had and have painful damaging consequences that many had (have) to experience actions chosen that cause harm to others is In my opinion not innocence I think choosing "right actions" is a learning process that takes discipline and dedication and some people will choose to live in a way that increases well-being others will choose to disregard/ diminish it when I have done actions out of balance for the highest good I feel the consequences of them I feel like a bit of innocence within myself was replaced with knowledge of the darker elements of life and this experience offered whatever lessons I choose to learn I believe corruption is real I believe that some people will make choices that are not for the highest good and be limited with vision of self and some will understand and strive to honor codes of inter-connection and that there is a difference in the essence of a person depending on what they choose to focus on now the quote that started this question was "to achieve inner peace, we must perceive a world where everyone is innocent" I don't believe that this is the requirement for inner peace I'm not exactly sure what is the requirement is but Hitler chose choices that were not innocent , they were corrupt and criminal and I'm not choosing to have my inner peace be dependent on refusing to recognizing bad apples when I come across them my 2 cents of opinion to the peanut gallery |
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Mon, May 5, 2008 - 11:02 PM
I have just had this discussion in the last two days.
Every person is making choices based on the thousands of experiences they have had throughout life. Even if that choice is consciously bad, the elements from day one are what make that person and contribute to that decision. So the question really becomes, Do people consciously going against what they know isnt righteous a lack of innocence? The elements of their life experience guide them to their actions/reactions, but there are so many people that know better and do it anyway. Is knowing better and doing it anyway a lack of innocence? If Hitler truly acted with 100% sureness that his actions were correct and not doing it in the face of knowing better, is he innocent? Someone robbing a gas station knows it's wrong, knows they could go to jail, knows they are about to scare the crap outa someone. All the elements of their life led them to do this. If we were to really look at all the elements of this individual, would we gain an understanding of the reasons for the robbery and perhaps see exactly why they felt the need to do this act? Cause there are times, when I am wronged, I can look at the person and see exactly why they did what they did and I lose my anger over it. Not totally, because were adults I expect a bit more, but I tend to lose my fierceness over it because I can usually see the same response in me, perhaps not as immature or mean or.... but on a lesser level, I am guilty as well. Yet I feel I still have the innocence. |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 12:19 AM
We were all born innocence
We have lost our innocence.
I think a worthwhile goal to get it back. Those who get it back are truly free people. |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 7:22 AM
stickler for words
I believe that there is a difference between compassion and empathy
and innocence when wrong action has taken place compassion, empathy , forgiveness doesn't change the action only the judgment and relationship with the action I believe once innocence has been exposed to experiences its no longer innocence by definition can transform into other things, like wisdom but innocence in its self is a state of experience not a choice of reaction just as the human experience of broken trust, betrayal breaking trust and betraying is an experience that once experienced you can't delete it into non-existence but you can choose options of reaction If anyone believes one can recover innocence feel free to share the process |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 8:01 AM
I believe corruption exists. I believe everyone inadvertantly causes pain and imbalance around them. And I also believe that everyone is innocent because of what they themselves believe about themselves. Most people believe they are innocent. Some people believe they are tainted - have lost innocence long ago.
But there are few people who know that as a species we are both innocent and corrupt - we create balance and imbalance wherever we go; we are a moving cycle. It is the fact that most people are blind to this which makes them innocent. The innocent believes there is only either white or black. But the wise know that innocence and corruption exist simultaneously and interdependantly...or so I believe.... |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 8:47 AM
I too believe that we're all born innocent and due to our experiences we can lose that , but it's still underneath. I've heard that same quote from another book or class I took, but put in a different way. It is tricky, especially when corruption comes into play. My whole life experience was definitely back and forth with these concepts. Humans are judgmental to others and themselves. I could say so and so is bad for breaking into my car, but I too have been corrupted in my life experience as well and haven't been so innocent in some eyes. I think for a long time I believed that we're all corrupted in some way.
This is a very good discussion to bring up. I think I may bring this up in one of my classes. Perhaps, non-violent communication? |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:08 AM
We are all basically innocent.
At some point, we do things that make sense to us according to circumstances or our own inner logic, but when viewed by others, or even by ourselves at a different point, those actions are judged as "corrupt" or "bad". Everyone is capable of everything. You may view another's actions as "corrupt" or "bad" and not understand how they did them, but were you in their exact same circumstance with their exact same past experiences (with their exact same brain chemistry) you may very well make the same choice. |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 11:16 AM
Innocence and corruption.
Innocence can mean a pure state of being. As in when one is first born. Without any influence from any external source. Corruption can't be avoided in this case because interactions with others will corrupt that pure state of innocence just by interactions that influence us. Corruption can also mean a deviation from what is considered the pure path of whatever is under consideration. Eating pork could be considered a corruption in the eyes of a devout Jew or follower of Islam.. Taking money for providing influence could be considered a corruption. Except perhaps if your a politician, in which case it is more than likely the norm. This brings about another question. The question of good and evil. Many in our country think it evil (as in the axis of) to do harm to our nation. Others think that they are doing good by resisting and demonstrating against our national policies and actions. Does good and evil exist? Perhaps a better question for us to ask of ourselves about our personal actions would be... ...do we act in a beneficent manor or a malignant one? Every action can be perceived as either or. American troops think that they are doing their duty beneficently by “bringing democracy” to the world. Insurgents, or freedom fighters the world round, think they are acting beneficently by resisting. We consider them malignant and they consider us the same way. It all seems to be very relative according to your circumstance. An example from our own American history: Our patriotic founding fathers, the minute men and all of our revolutionary heros would be considered, in todays parlance, as insurgents by the British. Benadict Arnold, a traitor in our history books, would have been considered a patriot by the British had we lost our bid to defect from British control. Each group thinks that the are acting benificently in the context of their own goals and aspirations, while their counterpart group considers them a malignant force. It's all relative to your own situation. Innocence may just be being true to yourself. Corruption may just be being swayed away from your own inner sense of what is right and wrong. Universal justice secondary to respect for our fellow beings seems to me to be the most innocent and persecuted aspiration that exists today. Viva la revolucion (with that little thing over the “o”) |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 11:49 AM
May I say word? I may? Then I say word.
Well, I would be into creating a definition of corruption in this case of "tainted by the institutions of civilization". Innocence becomes "beholden to humanistic concerns without regard to mindless prorogation of societal institutions unless there is benefit to humanity". Under these terms, I have never met anyone who is not corrupt - including of course myself. |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 2:02 PM
Maybe this is another way to think of it.
Example 1:
We all know that driving cras is doing extreme harm to our planet. We are, on the one hand, innocent because we did not have malicious intent in mind when we began driving at age 16. Nor do we have malicious intent in mind as we drive our cars to work. And on the other hand, most of us are aware of the harm we are causing, yet are unwilling or unable to *not* drive our cars. Therefore, we are also NOT innocent, but corrupt... Example 2: And on and on it goes, I believe - in every facet of life... The Seals are eating so much of the Salmon in the NW that our fishing industry is getting nervous. They are eating so much Salmon because there's not much else and there is an unusual low count of Salmon. Humans are threatened by this and in turn threaten the Seals (either intentionally, by trapping and killing -illegally- or unintentionally, by "saving" - and sending to sea world). The Seals know what they are doing. So do the Humans. Probably so do the Salmon (perhaps they have a secret hiding place, or perhaps many of them have become abstinent on purpose). And we all know the probable consequence of our actions. Yet every being is *both* innocent and corrupt. In Conclusion: I believe the more awareness the being posesses, the stronger the polarity of innocence versus corruption. Hence, the balance of dark and light in one species; the balance of good and evil in one ecosystem; the balance of good intentions and bad intentions on one planet... It is as it is...and maybe the knowledge of that is what brings inner peace.... only time will tell. |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 5:03 PM
I do not feel that anyone is innocent. Though I feel that most people are good people who want to have family and peaceful lives.
Our universe is unfolding in many directions, some good and some not. We can seek out ways to be better. I try, but know that I can never escape the many ways I do harm, to myself, to others, to this world. Forgive me for that. |
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 5:38 PM
I believe everyone is ignorant. Ignorant of the full consequences of their actions. The degree of ignorance varies by individual choice.
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Unsu...
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Tue, May 6, 2008 - 8:26 PM
Bragitta, I think the websters definition posted, vary from what most people think when they hear the term "innocence."
I personally associate it with a purity of being. Imagine being in a room full of 100 people who love you, and are sending you love for 24 hours straight. And then imagine being in a room or 100 people who hate you, and are sending negative thoughts for a full day. I am sure most would feel affected and influenced either way. There are so many angles and dimensions to look from. As far as are people "born" innocent, yes, that is where we came from... but even a soul's evolution crossing galactic spheres and spaces of varying vibrations, may include some horrific experiences- and some of those souls, may have incarnated here on earth to "work those things out." So in their healing process, may still develop or express more "madness." So, going back to the room full of people, I'm sure one can imagine that either energy/experience would have an affect. And on this earth we are in a giant "room," all responsible for our well-being, while paradoxically affecting the rest. We are all moving as a collective... The soul has it's own evolutionary growth spectrum, just as the human body does. It is so quick and easy to judge people like Bush, but I just see him as a young soul. As far as Hitler goes, I think I may have seen his soul reincarnated, at a Starbuck's in downtown Chicago (but I won't post that story here lol, but needless to say, a very fitting incarnation). Some say he was actually an advanced soul, that he chose to act less evolved than he is, in order to teach humanity- this would be considered a great sacrifice, for a soul who has already done alot of work, to go and play this role. My uncle, he was one of the unhappiest people I knew. When he passed on, I wondered what would happen to his soul, and if he would get stuck, because he seemed so disconnected from life itself. I thought his soul would need major healing before being able to move on. But wow, I saw him ascend to the heaven rhealms, and that in fact his soul was very bright. My sense was that his misery was a sort of "pretending role" he chose in order to teach others, as well as to hold a certain vibration. I would so recommend for anyone to watch the old 60's version of "Bedazzled" with Dudley Moore. It;s kinda hard to find, but it's HILARIOUS (if you like british humor), and in this movie, even the devil wants to go back to God. Might just make you laugh at this duality "good and bad" "innocent or corrupt" thing. Even as a comedy, there is so much richness to it! "to achieve inner peace, we must perceive a world where everyone's true desire, whether conscious or not, is to experience pure love." |
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Wed, May 7, 2008 - 2:55 AM
Many references are being made to 'corruption' which would seem to indicate that there are recognized standards or values that are not adhered to. To answer the question of weather innocence/corruption exist one would first have to hold an opinion or belief that standards or absolutes exist. I happen to think they do.
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Wed, May 7, 2008 - 6:59 AM
corruption
wow
you all rock!! amazing insights and juicy mental nuggets to chew on John, your right about the concept of corruption we talk about innocence a lot but not much about what corruption is I will do the dictionary definition first: 1 guilty of dishonest practices 2 debased in character, depraved, perverted: wicked, evil (oh boy on that word) 3 made inferior by errors or alterations, as a text 4 infected: tainted 5 decayed: putrid 6 to destroy the integrity of, cause to be dishonest, disloyal, etc, esp. by bribery 7 to lower morally: pervert 8 to alter morally: pervert 9: to mar: spoil 10 to infect: taint 11 to make putrid or putrescent (great word) so that's what the dictionary says about corruption for me corruption is the choice that is not "right action" I can feel it every time I do or don't make it its hard to pinpoint or explain but my body knows and my being knows when I have made or not made a choice that was right action my life feels it and the consequences of it For me I feel that there are always right actions that can happen along the way that many right actions can happen to neutralize bad choices to an extent but some times bad choices have more lasting consequences than others, especially when trust is involved for me broken trust I feel is the hardest to make right because once its broken there always is a crack that compromises the structure sort of speak so many juicy morsels in the dialog thank you all so much for participating and sharing in this mind exploration with me |
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Wed, May 7, 2008 - 9:21 AM
innoceance is all there is the rest is just a story
I would humbly suggest that the basic quote is being misunderstood
"to achieve inner peace, we must perceive a world where everyone is innocent" Profoundly powerful statement This is talking about the transcendent aspect of hope, of holding in our heart of hearts a world where everyone is free from the addictions and bondages that cause them to act contrary to their true innocent nature. To hold the truth that the world should exist in this purity, is to have the inner peace that allows us to transform this current chaotic mess into a paradise again. To hold any other view is to be in some form of conflict, good versus bad, for example thinking that, any politician before Bush was better, or any politician after Bush will be better, is to be still trapped in the matrix, they have you if your in that thought stream, still believing the illusion that the system somehow can be better by the next puppet they dance before you, thus always stuck in the conflict, always having them against us mentality. Gandhi The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams. If we have the hope to see the world that should be were everyone is innocent, then we will have the courage to love thoses whose innocence is buried by hurts, fears, anger and violence. then our inner peace changes those around us, are light vanishes their darkness. This is the way: faith, hope ,love all are innocent, all are capable; bitterness, greed, and anger are the allusion trying to hide this reality. |
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Wed, May 7, 2008 - 10:13 PM
and I sincerely hope that I (we) can reach this place of transformed chaos
unfortunately corruption has been real up to this place and time and the pain backlash created from various assaults and power struggles are real how to heal within this place/ space where there still are very real assaults and power struggles still happening at this moment for very many people to have inner peace amidst "corrupted" circumstance to reach that place of inner peace light that vanishes darkness this is my intention of my life for this life time hence the questioning corruption is real at this time I don't think I would be considered crazy for this statement we live in a time that corruption is real to ignore corruptions existence in a way would be foolish not to be crippled by the acknowledgement but I think true wisdom has vision to be able to see truth for me corruption is an energy that does exist an energtic reality at this time and place of existance there is no way I can honestly convience myself that corruption doesn't exist and isn't happening at this time does that mean I cant obtain inner peace or keep my vision, hope for less chao's no its just that as a free will reality some people choose different things and some people do choose corrption as their mode of mo not every one has the desire to be inter connected just like not everyone is going to care about self-sustainable healthy practices thats the beauty of free will diversity of values and priorities I think its a bit of egotistical to place the value on peace for everyone, as if everyone is aiming for this because that isn't everyones values I have interesting conversations with people as I did my self-sustainable cross country tour that they were not interested in lowering the ecological footprint straight out was honest that they didnt give a rats ass about carbon emissions and other "baloney" and this was thier truth I learned a big lesson from that that I am in no position to assume what other peoples values are or should be and that there really are people who really do not care about global issues confronting the next generation future free will is an interesting thing |
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Thu, May 8, 2008 - 12:53 AM
innocence
I agree with the quote. I think the ability to see others as being innocent is not passive, it is a place of great power.
If one has the power to disregard other's weaknesses and look to the good in them, it fosters the connection that makes everything else possible. A new boss started in on a racist rant. I had just been talking to a social worker friend. Instead of spouting some anti-racist stuff back to him (my ego's response), I happened to catch myself. And I just listened. By listening, with some real intention of caring, the guy opened his heart and we made a real connection. That led to friendship. Many months later, I think it started to lead to some amending of his attitude about race...but without there ever being a discussion about it. So, I think that is the kind of thing that can transform people. I think there is a manipulative side of "killing with kindness." And, I guess, that is better than mere confrontation. But, to my mind, there is also a very very pure "killing with kindness" in which we truly disregard our feelings and wants and just have compassion on the other person...for just being a person, suffering difficulties and problems. However much we might hate a guy like Dick Cheney or something...he is still human. If we got a face to face meeting with the guy and could connect with him, on any level...any expression of true warm feelings could only do good. However lost he is in his own ignorance, if he were to meet some loving saint who showered him with pure love...he would surrender to that....it is a power that no one can ever resist. |
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Thu, May 8, 2008 - 5:24 AM
Innocent's is Micky Mouse
To believe that everyone is innocent, is just plain thoughtless, idiotic and on a personal note, makes me want to vomit.
Naive is a better word to describe those of us who go gallivanting around completely unaware with a happy little smile on their faces, because they will never take responsibility. Innocent! What a ridiculous word! Innocent has a counter-balance, that's guilty or non-innocent. Innocent's exists when a human being can't take care of ones self, like that of a baby who must be shown the way, who must be shown tenderness and affection. Innocent's is a seed, before it is placed in the ground, before it is covered with healthy dirt and watered. When a seed, sprouts and becomes a seedling, it pushes through to the other side, which breaks into a world that is not innocent, but experienced. The first comment from someone about some political "leaders" who have done terrible things in the world is just obscene. Bush, Cheney, Hitler...These are bad seeds that have chosen the way in which they will grow or have grown. These people made choices, they are responsible for the massive destruction they created on the whole of humanity, other animals, our planet. These are not Innocent, these people are viruses that need to be stop at all costs. Innocent! Ha! Don't make me Laugh! I have spent over 11 months in the middle east interviewing and watching home made films of how Israeli soldiers are killing "Innocent" Woman and children Palestinians. The Soldiers believe that if they don't mow down these people's house's (while they are inside) they will multiply and make more babies that will eventually kill Israeli's. Our President, Mr. George W, is selling arms to Iraq, which in turn is now supporting the Palestinian movement by giving those, U.S. made guns to children to kill Israeli's, while on the flip side, who do you think is supporting the Israeli's with tons of weapons??!!... Mr. G.W. Bush. This man needs to be stopped for the sake of Innocents. I do not believe that people are Innocent. Babies, Yes. People, NO! It has nothing to do with development or who "allowed" them to do something or not. After Innocent's comes the only thing that can be... Responsibility! Do you have that? As an Adult? Can you say...Gosh, I really fucked up! Let me see if I can make things better... What do you think I should do? Or do we all go around with our heads up our ass's? We the People...Start with that! Innocent~ |
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Thu, May 8, 2008 - 5:37 AM
Villages, vortex, voidness
Beautiful sister,
It is not you walk around oblivious of others wrong choices, it's how you process and relate to others wrong choices, instead of seeing them as a cruel enemy that you have to execute judgment on you see them as they misguided child who needs to be loved back into the family. There was a tribe that was found in South America, that behaved much different from any other tribes, contrary to our romantic opinions of tribal people there is a lot of selfishness and petty issues that go on in day to day life. When the anthropologists found this tribe they behaved in incredible connectedness and in deep love for all the members of the tribe they found out their secret which is to secret of this quote that started this thread: When someone would violate one of the tribal taboos,pehaps stealing from another tribal member. They would put them in the center of the tribe, starting with the youngest to the oldest surrounding them, then they would begin to speak of all the beautiful things that person had done, how they have helped each one that spaoke, how they had shown some one in the tribe some beautiful virtue, on and on they would praise the person for all their goodness and character, never mentioning the offense, when they all finished they would dismiss. That person would recognize who they really are,( this innocent person) and the behavior that came out of them did not represent who they really are they would find that behavior no longer serves them. It is not that I don't see corruption, it is that I speak to the light for the light is the real the corruption is the diversion from that real. When you hold this understanding you find inner peace and you transform the environment around you. In my scientific research working was water that is full of chaos and disorganized I start to spin the water in centripedal implosion, most of the water in the column is chaotically bouncing around (corrupted by its disorganization ) but by defining the math of the void, a very small amount of water starts to spin in on itself interfacing with the viod (peace) in the center of the column, when the implosion dynamics reach a critical mass, all the water in the column gets seeded with organization and coherency, just as you molecules of water that shows the path of surrender influenced millions upon millions of water molecules lost in the chaos. may we who are here long to find this path of surrender, through the road of forgiveness, compassion, and mercy, for if we few here found the peace in the void we would reseed the innocence of millions. try it out it works :) |
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Thu, May 8, 2008 - 5:59 AM
These are not Innocent, these people are viruses that need to be stop at all costs. Innocent! Ha! Don't make me Laugh!
It seems like Bush, Hitler, believe the same thing as you do, that others that they deem it is a viruses should be stoped at all costs. So the only difference between you and them is they have the power to execute their wishes and you do not. A eye for an eye makes the whole world blind -Gandhi Anger is the enemy of peace and pride is a monster that swallows it up. -Mohandas Gandhi "You, yourself, as much as anybody else in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection we see that best in the eyes of otheres" - Buddha love your enemy as yourself- Bible "All works of love are works of peace." - Mother Theresa "This is the way of peace: overcome evil with good, and falsehood with truth, and hatred with love." -Peace Pilgrim We cannot change the past, but we can change our attitude toward it. Uproot guilt,anger and plant forgiveness. Tear out arrogance and seed humility. Exchange love for hate --- thereby, making the present comfortable and the future promising."---Maya Angelou may love return you to innocence |
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Thu, May 8, 2008 - 11:43 PM
Hmmm... the paradox being...
That you see everyone in their untainted, Buddha self, innocent state... and yet hold them accountable for their lack of integrity, lies, ugly, immoral actions and crass behavior.
So - how do hold both visions? I faced this once on a personal level... someone who claimed to be spiritual told lies about me. Always a surprise, but I just kept the idea that eventually she would see through her deluded actions and apologize. Eventually karma catches up with everyone, and perhaps they'll own their actions. It's certainly harder to do with politicians and war mongers and CEOs... one can objectify them as being pure evil with no human characteristics more easily. But remembering that Dow Chemical is completely comprised of people who see themselves as "basically good people", is important in seeking to change the system in which such companies operate. To be truly effective activists, we must not demonize the system we seek to change. |
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Fri, May 9, 2008 - 9:48 AM
"Do you believe that everyone is basically innocent or do you believe corruption exists "
Corruption exists but evil does not.. Corruption is a result of lack of compassion and selfishness.. But that is not evil.. People do bad things when they claim to see the difference between good and evil.. But that is madness i say.. In my opinion.. There is no good and evil.. There is only selfishness and compassion.. Nobody is 100% selfish and nobody is completely compassionate.. In both cases it would destroy a person.. |
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Sat, May 10, 2008 - 2:54 AM
In the book 'Love is Letting go of Fear' a quote was "to achieve inner peace, we must perceive a world where everyone is innocent"
this concept was (is) hard for me to embrace fully (and an area I probably need to heal) Do you believe that everyone is basically innocent or do you believe corruption exists, regardless if they are "good" people, causing pain and imbalance around them I dont believe that everyone is basically innocent. Unfortunately there are people who enjoy causing pain in this world. Corruption exists. I have my own evils as well as my own light. I would hate to think of myself as corrupted, but I can be greedy as well as generous, I can be hateful as well as loving. I try to go through life without hurting other living things, but I have realized that is just not possible. I grow a plant, and then I cut it down, destroying its life, causing it pain, just to sustain myself. Every step and breath I take I probably kill thousands of living beings. However, I dont intentionally hurt anything. I strive to preserve balance for myself as well as those around me. There are those who can think of nothing other than themselves however. I feel that there are those who feel pleasure from hurting others. There are those who seek to cause pain and imbalance as well as those who strive to maintain it. As far as that quote goes "to achieve inner peace, we must perceive a world where everyone is innocent" I believe that means for one achieve inner peace, we must percieve see everyone as the same, and that they must be treated with unconditional love, acceptance, and infinite compassion regardless of hurtful, self interested actions. We are all human beings and there are reasons that we do the things we do. Inner peace comes with knowing how intertwined we all are, from beginning to end, to new beginning. It is difficult to love those that would hurt us, but in the end I believe we will all become one again. Much love |
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Sat, May 10, 2008 - 6:59 AM
innocence/corruption
born corrupted, black and white karma follows like a shadow. seeking innocence is commendable, however finding innocence is in non-being. we do the best we can.
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Sat, May 10, 2008 - 2:43 PM
INNER~SENSE
personally i don't believe Hitler could have failed to realize the painful effects of his actions
he may well have arrived at such a state of willful ignorance about the ramifications of the nazi movement by denial of some earlier pain each individual has a connexion to divinity (for they are an embodiment of it) and a choice of free will i think that 'evil' and corruption of divine will (or common sense) arise from a complete astonishment at the state of reality.. a schism occurs.. and the individual may relinquish some part of their intelligence to an external form the 'external form' is more like a mind-made construction in the individual.. if the form is conscious in any way this can become 'possession' and the individual's will becomes the other's (to the degree that the individual consciously [or unconsciously] surrenders it to me innocence is a skill.. i believe we have a natural propensity for it from birth. i also believe we have a great amount of collective pain which causes us to act from fear-based attitudes.. as societies.. as a global culture.. naturally we abide by natural laws.. [mostly] only when admonished, judged, derided, punished or manipulated do we tend towards the type of actions and attitudes that harm ourselves or others.. what to do about the things we see around us that we feel are 'wrong' or not loving-kindness~based attitudes? act. from a place of innocence.. is that wisdom? perhaps.. but wisdom can easily shift into judgement (absolutes exist, just many of us don't operate from that realm) innocence can be accrued by being present and loving. that state can then be remembered at times of distress (or eustress) and we can more easily abide by natural law (i.e. if someone is causing pain to another we do our best to call the individual back to universal consciousness - or listen to them and invite peaceful action/thought) by learning the skill/practice of innocence we can re~member our scattered selves and instead scatter joy p.s. Edmund Burke: All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing. |
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Sat, May 10, 2008 - 8:49 PM
Life and everything...
I believe we are all born innocent. But then as the years roll by and experiences come and go we loose that. I believe we wouldn't want to become the dictionary definition of innocent as we age because then it would be as becoming a child again and we would loose the wisdom that we have gained through life. We should however all strive for purity and right action.
Corruption does exist, and it is everywhere. To deny its existence and insist that all people are innocent is to not see the truth. We must hope for better from them, and empathize with each other's shortcomings, but we cannot say that corruption doesn't exist. While I try every day to better myself and seek a better path - and seek to educate myself on what I've done wrong. Others might not work on this. Or they might not have the values I do. Or their priorities are not my priorities. That's ok. Perhaps their fate was meant to accomplish something different from my fate - and it is not necessary for their concerns to be of such a global nature. Or maybe I'm meant to make them think of that with our interactions... This last week there was a story in the news that was the epitomy of the word 'corruption' on a personal, family level. This man, who is Austrian, decided to abduct his own daughter at 18, and years beforehand prepared a secret soundproof 3 chamber prison down below his house and put her there. He kept her there for 24 years and fathered 7 children by her. 6 of them lived, and spent their entire lives in this chamber until he was found out. Now - because of his corruption, there is a whole family that is broken through incest. Imagine the lives of the children... How will they ever lead normal lives? How will they ever date anyone - because the topic of their family will come up... Who would want to marry them? To say that corruption doesn't exist or that people are all innocent is a refusal to look at life as it is with all the shit on it and hope for better and work for better. We can't be better without hope that it can be. But better will not happen without the work of education and the discipline of restraining the self for the betterment of society and the greater good. |
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Sun, May 11, 2008 - 7:50 AM
re: Innocence and Corruption Occurring Naturally
An Example: A baby is born. A baby can be interpreted as Innocent, yet after the baby is born, (before it is clean), it is covered in its moms' body fluids. Both Innocence and Corruption occur in Nature together. Another example: A young plant grows, yet deteriorates when it dies. In growing the young plant brings both oxygen and food to the environment, in deteriorating it is reabsorbed and is food for other plants. There is a possibility that the same can be said of society.
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Sun, May 11, 2008 - 8:36 AM
I feel better when I believe no one is doing anything bad to me on purpose.
I believe people are innocent as in they came here on earth with no instructions and are lost in their own selfishness, so they don't know any better. Usually trying to make up for somewhere they've been slighted. I don't think anyone has to be innocent for inner piece, just that I have to interpret everyone as being innocent, for my inner peace, because then I'm not blaming. And blaming causes inner turmoil. I can tell myself, Bush doesn't know any better. He's a selfish person who thinks he's making a pre-emptive strike. He's trying to make himself bigger and he's never going to get big enuf to feel content. I can feel sorry for him really. He probably thinks he's providing for his country. Anyone who wants the kind of power a politician has is going to be coming from the same place. I do think that everyone in their own demented ways are trying to find love. They are usually innocent of even knowing that, and as far as knowing how to obtain love they are innocent. Meaning they have no idea how, so they try to take it, force it or demand it. Instead of giving it, which if they did they would find out they get to feel it too. It doesn't mean I feel less for their victims. So I can see them being innocent of knowing what their motives are, but not innocent of their actions. |
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Wed, May 14, 2008 - 10:25 PM
Innocence passes when free will loses touch with conscience
Oscar Wilde said something like, we are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. I think that sums it up. And to badly paraphrase another quote that stuck in my head a long time ago, Samuel Clemens said that man is the only animal which blushes, or needs to. We're innocent at birth. What happens after that is when corruption seeps in. No matter how saintly the person, corruption touches each of us. The distinction between us is how we temper our behavior by choosing good or evil.
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Mon, May 26, 2008 - 6:14 PM
brains
I'm gonna read everyone else's comment after I post this, keep it real for myself. I recently read a book called "The Lucifer Principle" in which the author said that we have 3 brains. The bird brain, or reptilian brain, the primate brain, and a new brain that overlaps both these brains. On the course of our evolution, we need to learn to override these other two brains. They function in nature very well but as we try to move into a common society, these brains become very dangerous. It shows throughout history how the violence and degradation of humanity has stemmed from this neurological pathway only, that when people caused or participated in violence it was in no way their own fault, but that they were hardwired from the start to behave in the way that they did. I think it all goes back to the brain. If someone has a really bad anger problem, they might have a brain tumor. If someone grows up and kills thier mom, 9 times out of 10 that child grew up with so much emotional abuse thier brain was hardwired for survival. I can think before I act, or I would have totally murdered my 5 year old by now. But is that because my brain is more evolved than other people's who shake thier babies or beat them, or is it because I'm better than them. I think evolution has alot more to do with it than we think. I think we're stuck in the middle of learning how to rewire our brains and participate fully in the process of evolution and co creation.
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