So logical, so true, yet so unconsidered.

From
MOVEABLE FEAST
By Thane Peterson
www.businessweek.com/bwdaily...b028.htm

"The Environment Creates the Atrocity"
Comparing Abu Ghraib to My Lai in Vietnam, psychologist Robert Jay Lifton explains how ordinary Americans can behave so horribly

Renowned psychologist Robert Jay Lifton, who has spent his long career studying war and extremist political movements, is in a unique position to comment on the situation in Iraq. As a young Air Force psychiatrist during the early 1950s, he treated pilots traumatized during the Korean War. He went on to win a National Book Award in 1969 for Death in Life: Survivors of Hiroshima, and he has also published psychological studies of everything from Nazi doctors to Vietnam War veterans to Aum Shinrikyo, the extremist Japanese cult that released poison gas in the Tokyo subway system in 1995. All told, he has written 18 books and edited a half-dozen more.


Now a visiting professor at Harvard Medical School, Lifton has been preoccupied in recent years with the September 11 terrorist attacks and their aftermath -- what he describes as "the interaction between Islamist extremism and the American reaction" (Lifton uses the term "Islamist" to distinguish radical fundamentalist groups from the Islamic religion generally).

In his latest book, Superpower Syndrome: America's Apocalyptic Confrontation with the World, which came out in fall, 2003, he describes the war in Iraq as a confrontation between American and Islamist "apocalyptic visions" aimed at reforming and remaking the world order. He strongly opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, which he thinks undermined the focus and support for the war on terrorism.

On May 16, his 78th birthday, I caught up with Lifton by phone and asked him for his perspective on the insurgency, prison scandals, and other events in Iraq. Here are edited excerpts of our conversation:

Q: You speak in your book about "atrocity-producing situations." Would that idea apply to the current situation in Iraq?
A: It applies very specifically. I originally observed [that concept at work] in relation to Vietnam, specifically the mass killing [in 1968] of civilians in the small Vietnamese village of My Lai. Elements of the atrocity-producing situation there included free-fire zones, where soldiers could fire at anyone, and body counts in which there was competition for the most kills. When they entered that environment, individual soldiers -- ordinary people no better or worse than you or me -- were capable of committing atrocities.

Even though Iraq is very different from Vietnam, it's also a counterinsurgency war in which there's a lot of fear and uncertainty about who the enemy is and how to pin him down. An average person entering into that Abu Graib prison environment would be capable of committing atrocities because he or she was entering an atrocity-producing situation. From that standpoint, atrocities are not so much an individual expression as a group expression. The environment, which creates enormous pressures on the individual, creates the atrocity.

It's true that you get atrocities and atrocity-producing situations in all wars, including the last so-called good war [World War II]. But it's in counterinsurgency wars, which take place in alien territory with confusion about who's the enemy and with hostility from the people, that you're most likely to get sustained atrocity-producing situations. We saw those in Vietnam -- and we're seeing them in Iraq.

Q: So are you saying that an average office worker like me could commit atrocities, too?
A: Yes, I'm saying you or I or any average person might be capable of committing atrocities.
"The Environment Creates the Atrocity"
[Page 2 of 2]

Q: But some people did refuse to go along. What's different about them?
A: You're right to focus on that because it's a very hopeful phenomenon. I once interviewed for many hours a man who had been at My Lai and who had refused to fire. He pointed his gun to the ground and made it very clear to everybody that he wasn't firing [at the My Lai villagers]. That made him a little fearful that the other soldiers might turn on him because the pressure toward atrocity can become so great that the person who in some way counters it may become vulnerable to the disdain or even violence of the group.


Psychologically, there were three sources to his restraint. One was a certain religious conscience from his Catholic background. Second, a sense of being a loner and, therefore, not so easily influenced by the group. But the third was the most interesting and perhaps the most important factor -- his sense of military honor prevented him from firing.

It turns out that he was a man who had had trouble finding himself in life, entered the military, loved it, excelled, and planned to make it his career -- and then was appalled by what he found in Vietnam and at My Lai in particular. This was a violation of his military idealism. In Iraq, we don't know exactly the motivations of those who resisted the atrocity-producing situation, but I think that this notion of military honor could turn out to be important.

Q: What are the psychological forces behind the Iraqi attacks on Americans?
A: My sense is that there's a resistance and insurgency now that's many-sided, confused, and often chaotic. Nobody knows all the components of it. Surely, there are Islamist extremists coming in from outside seeking to find a battleground, and there's also a resistance [among many Iraqis] to our presence as an occupying power. It's really when a counterinsurgency war [involves] an occupation that you're likely to have not only resistance but perpetual atrocity-producing situations. It doesn't seem likely that this psychological motivation for resistance will go away as long as we're present in a powerful position in Iraq.

Q: What's the likely effect of the publication of the photos of prisoners being tortured and humiliated?
A: It taints the war effort. There had been growing doubt about the war, and these pictures are already causing those doubts to intensify. There's a sense that we have gotten into something very dirty that we can't control, and that in certain aspects of that situation we're behaving very badly. That [may make] the war seem less noble than we thought and not worth fighting.

But there can also be the opposite reaction: That we shouldn't make such a fuss about it, that [the prisoners] are nasty people. The beheading of the American [businessman] Nicholas Berg clearly evokes the extremity of the other side, in this case al Qaeda. The country is divided between these two views. They both represent what I call "survivor meaning" or "survivor mission" in relation to American deaths in Iraq and to the atrocities we're seeing on the part of Americans in Iraq.

Q: Is that one reason President Bush remains relatively popular in opinion polls?
A: There's a psychological tendency of any people to rally round the flag when there's war and one's own [people] are dying. There's a very strong impulse to believe and commit oneself to the principle that they didn't die in vain. It's a traditional survivor mission in relation to war that will continue to have enormous power for Americans. But there's also an alternative mission in which one questions the war and warmaking. It's as if there's a struggle between the two.

Q: Are we at a tipping point?
A: It's hard to know where the tipping point is. I think these prison scandals will have an enormous effect, which is only beginning now. Because of the information coming out and all the investigations under way, it's impossible to limit the scandal to the level of the foot soldiers. There are too many forces pressing for it to be opened out, too much information suggesting [responsibility] at higher levels.

Q: You've mentioned Vietnam. Are there also parallels in Iraq to World War II? Rightly or wrongly, many Americans connect Iraq to 9/11, and the nation was attacked on 9/11, just as it was at Pearl Harbor.
A: I agree with you that 9/11 is a very important psychological factor in what we have done [in Iraq]. But our response to the attack, rather than being focused and with limited use of violence, became amorphous and generalized when Iraq was thrown into the war on terrorism even though there wasn't any evidence that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. But the psychology of Americans, partly manipulated by the government, was more open to intense or extreme measures in interrogation and in fighting terrorism because we were attacked.

Hating the USA

..*'_`*.,,.*'_`*.*'_`*.,,.*'_`*., ><((((‘>


So they hate us. Maybe that's a GOOD THING.

A man is judged as much by the friends he keeps as he is by those who fear and despise
him.

In the last few years various people from Jimmy Carter the Dixie chicks and other hollywood characters whined and cried the false dirge of self loathing that America has lost its old popularity. ?? What is "old popularity"?? does it date to the Revolutionary
war??
Kerry in his campaign kept promising to "work with our allies" without even once
defining the notion. The "sensitive folk" thought they were competent to undo supposed harms of the last four years. Books are devoted to this new internal-anti-Americanism. Few (if any) have asked whether or not such suspicion of the United States could be a barometer of what is right about us. Nor have they contemplated with equal energy whether the French the Germans and similarly situated countries are not right, whether they are merely loud while the US is are on a correct track. The political left, the communists and other left leaning critics are awash in intellectual sloth because they will not examine themselves as critically as they do the US.


Egypt got $57 billion from the USA over the last three decades. But, Mubarak thinks that his indigenous democratic reformers are American stooges. The Saudis do just about the same.
But that's no biggie because so do the Islamic fascists. Notice how the Saudis and Egypt are terrified over what's going on in Iraq?? All this hate and venom arises because we are distancing ourselves from corrupt regimes, even while we are despised as vile promoters of democracy by the Islamists.
This may be a path fraught with danger but - - - is it bad?? I think not.

At the U.N., the ruling hierarchy mistrusts the United States. A culture of anti-Americanism has become endemic within the UN. But the UN is Arab dominated. As such the UN is by definition hostile to the US. The Us is the definition of modernity the Arab traditionalists reject it as evil.


Ever wonder why ONLY the USA pushes for more facts about the Oil-for-Food
scandal??
Only the USA questions Kofi Annan's breaches of ethics.
Only the USA demands investigations about U.N. crimes in Africa.
It is patently illogical that the USA is mistrusted and hated for caring about those little people who are inhumanely treated by the UN - a supposedly humane organization - because the dictatorships that dominate them get away with murder while holding high positions in the UN. Why would we want to be liked by such monsters?

Euro' bureaucrats (esp,, the French) use us as caricatures for their political ambitions letting the socialist EU media feed their lies (or is it the other way round?). They accuse the USA of every evil and harm in the world while they conspire to create, profit from, and perpetuate the very harms which they lay at our door. This, while they come here to encourage old NATO ties. It may in fact be a badge of honor to be hated by the these
people.

Mexico's newspapers trash Americans regularly. Vicente Fox usually sounds more like a belligerent than the occasional visitor at the presidential ranch. That is not so bad either. Why can't they figure out how to control their own police so (at the very least) the Mexican officials aren't engaged in the trade of human sex slaves and heroin?

The question is who is it that hates us - and why???

Arab dictatorships hate us. They used to count on an American diplomatic pass for their crimes but, that's drying up. Arabs don't fear and hate the Europeans inspite of the rampant communism there because the Europeans are weak.
Arabs don't fear and hate the largest polluter on the planet the Chinese, nor the old brutal Russians.
However, they do hate the USA. We alone are prodding them to open their economies and democratize their corrupt political cultures.

The United Nations has sadly become frightening organization shot through with corruption and profiteering. Its General Assembly is full of cutthroat regimes.

The UN Human Rights Commission has had members like Vietnam and Sudan. These regimes brag over who two killed more of their own people.

The U.N. let these characters decide who will be secretary-general: a Kurt Waldheim, Boutros Boutros-Ghali, or Kofi Annan.

Blue-helmeted peace-keepers, we learn, are as likely to commit as prevent crimes; and the only thing constant about such troops is that they will never go first into harm's way to protect the weak and innocent. Look to in Serbia, Kosovo, Rawanda, the Congo, or Dafur to see how well the UN performs.

Even worse, the U.N. has proved to be a terrible bully, an unforgivable sin for a self proclaimed protector of the weak and innocent. The UN has loudly mounted false charges against Israel for its presence in the West Bank, not a peep about China in Tibet; tough talk about Palestinian rights, Yet almost nothing about the Arabs committing mass murder in Darfur.

So U.N. anti-Americanism is a glowing radiation badge, proof of exposure to toxicity. I'll take two please.

The EU is well past being merely silly. Think of this:
A few thousand incoherent disagreeing bureaucrats are trying to control 400 million people. They want to control what those people say, eat, and think. Europe has some big concerns: figuring out how to float billions of retired people and welfare recipients with failing economies; NO JOBS, and a boat load of other entitlement programs that are hemorrhaging money; how to continue to ankle-bite the USA without antagonizing us so badly that we close out military bases and leave them to suffer a whole new series of wars and economic downturns; and how not to depopulate themselves out of existence.

European nations sold Saddam Hussein serious arms for oil and money well after the first Gulf War. The French sold Iraq the EXOCET missile which the Iraqi Airforce used to sink the USS Stark killing 30 U.S. Sailors.

Democracy in Israel or Taiwan means nothing to the Europeans. They are increasingly communist and hostile to democracies. Cuba, China, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah are loved by the Europeans while the USA, Taiwan, and Israel, are disliked.

Mexico, enjoys some of the most fertile land in the world (second only to Bangladesh) can't feed its own people. Instead Mexico exports its poor to the United States.

Meanwhile crossing into Mexico from Central America one finds closed borders which Mexico enforces with military weapons and a standard shoot to kill policy. From the USA illegal aliens send back almost $50 billion. That money serves to prop up corrupt Mexican institutions removing any incentive for change. Given its treatment of its own people, if the Mexican government praised the United States we should indeed be concerned.

The Europeans don't seem to care that Japan is being squeezed between a nuclear North Korea and a nuclear China. The USA alone is the Japan's only ally in their predicament.

The French take $$ from the Chinese to conduct military maneuvers with the communist Chinese Navy.

There are about a BILLION Indian citizens who should recall that we floated their economy during a recession in India when we kept our economy open exporting jobs and expertise to India causing India's economy to grow and survive (of course this after the English trashed it).

Citizens of Japan - by the millions - like the USA.

The USA once fed China's millions, yet they don't much like us at all. The communist Chinese dictatorship that killed 50 million of its own and many of its neighbors is still in place in China.

Eastern Europeans (definitely not Europeans) seem to think the USA is just fine. But then they actually understand that large families, religion, individualism, and freedom are good things. So too the millions in South America. They keep coming here.


We are the only superpower left. It's really only natural that the frustrated weaklings hate us with an infantile jealous rage. They say they are better than we are - "because." That's it. That's the beginning and end of the European bid for moral supremacy.

With the Russian Bear no longer a threat those cowards (whom we saved from Hitler) have turned on us like rabid Chiwawa.

I say that the mere fact that vile creatures hate us such as the Euro' communists; Arab dictators and their hoards of ignorant arrogant peasants; the UN; and Mexico is a good thing. It's a WONDERFUL thing.
It is not a cause for breast beating and self loathing as Kerry and his pack of Euro wannabes like Pelosi insist it must be.

A man is known for the company he keeps as well as for the people who fear and hate him.

Give me the Japanese, the Poles, the Albanians the Taiwanese, The Malay's , the Indians any day of the week and you can have the communist fair weather friends like the Spanish, French, English, Nazies, and Arabs - - - take 'em hold 'em dear to your breast and when they chew off the arms you hold 'em with and then curse you 'cause there isn't more to eat don't come whining to US. We told you so.

Aside from Italy ( and then under duress) not one nation on the planet ever invited Hitler's army in. Yet, when there is trouble, the whole world comes to the USA.

None of the following has ever happened:
European nations ordering American troops out and closing our bases.
Japan asserts that our textbooks whitewash the Japanese forced internment or Hiroshima.
China cites unfair trade with the United States
South Korea orders us off their DMZ.
India complains that we are dumping outsourced jobs on them.
Egypt, Jordan, and the "Palestinians" refuse cash aid.
Canada bitches up a storm that the USA can't carry its weight military defense of ALL of North America.
The United Nations hasn't moved to its true home in Saudi Arabia.
The Ignorant arrogant peasants of arab nations whine and bitch that the USA is ramming psychotic theocrats, autocrats, and vicious dictators down their throats.
Mexico building a fence to keep us out.
Latin America objecting at all - ever - to our culture or our ball teams.
The rest of the world finding American books, films, and pop culture unpalatable.

If a man is known both by his friends as well as enemies then I am satisfied that those indicators are saying very good things about the USA.
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Shamelessly lifted and altered from the original manuscript by Victor Davis Hanson (military historian and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University) His website is victorhanson.com.
original text found at: — www.nationalreview.com/hanson...803.asp
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